Will Halsall Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 Back on topic,with references to Hutchinson Camp, I found this an interesting read this morning: https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/books/2022/01/deplorable-things-have-happened-inside-britains-second-world-war-internment-camps 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quilp Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 1 hour ago, Will Halsall said: Back on topic,with references to Hutchinson Camp, I found this an interesting read this morning: https://www.newstatesman.com/culture/books/2022/01/deplorable-things-have-happened-inside-britains-second-world-war-internment-camps Didn't happen here, apparently. Coincidently, this article appeared in the Guardian this morning. A good read with a brew... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/01/when-britain-imprisoned-refugees-second-world-war-internment-camps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost Ship Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 10 hours ago, New Broom said: Even the BBC now acknowledges that 'only' 17,000 have lost their lives to covid - not the hugely inflated figures they were bombarding us with hourly at the start of the 'pandemic'. Or 'casedemic' to describe it more accurately. The average age of death was 77.8 year - almost identical to current life expectancy ie; covid made no difference. This was known from the outset. The motivation was never safeguarding the population but increasing control. As must now surely be obvious. To some at least. ... But that's a perfect example of the sort of bollocks I mentioned earlier that covid deniers and anti-vaxers peddle. First, the figure of 17000 was discussed on the BBC programme More or Less on Friday pm as Chinahand has already mentioned above. As I had already heard the figure of 17000 from a friend, I was interested to hear the discussion. To make it easy to understand, lawyers sometimes use the "but for" test to assist in answering questions about causation in law. So, for example, if you can say that "But for action A event B would not have happened", then you can validly say that action A "caused" event B. But if event B would have happened anyway without action A, then A did not cause B. The 17000 refers to deaths where the only thing identified as contributing to or causing death was Covid. All other covid related deaths include other medical conditions (eg diabetes, athsma etc) which also happened to be present at death. The point made on More or less was that although those other people had additional conditions over and above covid listed on their death certificates, they almost certainly would not have died from those conditions but for the fact they had caught covid. Most of them had already reached a ripe old age before covid with those pre-existing conditions. So even though they may have had those other conditions at time of death, it was the covid that killed them, and not the diabetes or athsma etc. It's quite simple really... Second, if you have reached the age* of 77.8 by the time you die, then that is not "almost identical" to your current life expectancy. I can't be bothered checking the exact figures now, but I suspect that a 77 year old can probably expect to live for at least another 8 or 9 years. So anybody aged 77 who died as a result of catching covid has - on average - lost about 10% of their expected lifespan. Which sounds like quite a lot to me... * I thought the average age of the 17000 was - according to ONS - about 80 or 81 and - also according to ONS - that average life expectancy at that age was 90 or 91 depending on whether male or female. (The really ironic thing is that I'm not somebody who would necessarily dismiss out of hand some of the points you appear to be trying to make. But as you can't produce either a valid and coherent argument or evidence in support of those points, I can't accept them. Anyway, back to the topic... ) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Halsall Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 3 hours ago, quilp said: Didn't happen here, apparently. Coincidently, this article appeared in the Guardian this morning. A good read with a brew... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/01/when-britain-imprisoned-refugees-second-world-war-internment-camps Cheers Q, I enjoyed reading that over lunch! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted February 1, 2022 Author Share Posted February 1, 2022 5 hours ago, quilp said: Didn't happen here, apparently. Coincidently, this article appeared in the Guardian this morning. A good read with a brew... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/01/when-britain-imprisoned-refugees-second-world-war-internment-camps 1 hour ago, Will Halsall said: Cheers Q, I enjoyed reading that over lunch! I’m looking forward to reading the new book. I’ve read the stuff by David Baddiel, the Connery Chappell “Island of Barbed Wire” and Count Nickolai Giovannelli’s book. Also the articles written by Tom Conti about his father. I sat with a psychiatrist on a tribunal, for a number of years. He had a perfectly English name. After a sitting ran short I offered to take him back to the airport. He asked, if we had time, to go via Port St Mary Prom. He had a number in mind. On the way he told me about his mother. She qualified as a Doctor in Vienna just before Anschluss. Escaped with her much younger sister, sent to England by their parents in 1938. Never to see their parents again. BMA wouldn’t recognise her qualifications. To support herself, and her sister, she found work as a nursing auxilliary. The younger sister studied nursing at a London teaching hospital. Come 1940 she was arrested, interned in Port St Mary. The younger sister was allowed to stay in London and complete her nursing course. By mid 1941 there was such a shortage of medically qualified personnel that she was released, the BMA relented, she worked as a Doctor in London through the war, and then as a GP. She stayed in contact with the owners of the property she was billeted at for the rest of her life, exchanging letters and cards. We found her aliens landing and registration form at the Manx Museum and a record of her having a pair of shoes repaired at the PtStMary cobblers. When moral panics create folk devils, all Germans or Italians, caught the wrong side of international borders at outbreak of war, are treated with suspicion. Takes time to sort out the goodies from the baddies. The Island, for many, was a much better place than they might have ended up, and incarceration was comparatively benign and short. Whats worrying is that we are in a repeat cycle, much worse, in how we treat current refugees, especially those of different skin hue or religious sect. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quilp Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 Great story, I'm sure there are many like it. Plenty of internees remained, or returned to the Island after WW2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Halsall Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 13 minutes ago, John Wright said: I’m looking forward to reading the new book. I’ve read the stuff by David Baddiel, the Connery Chappell “Island of Barbed Wire” and Count Nickolai Giovannelli’s book. Also the articles written by Tom Conti about his father. I sat with a psychiatrist on a tribunal, for a number of years. He had a perfectly English name. After a sitting ran short I offered to take him back to the airport. He asked, if we had time, to go via Port St Mary Prom. He had a number in mind. On the way he told me about his mother. She qualified as a Doctor in Vienna just before Anschluss. Escaped with her much younger sister, sent to England by their parents in 1938. Never to see their parents again. BMA wouldn’t recognise her qualifications. To support herself, and her sister, she found work as a nursing auxilliary. The younger sister studied nursing at a London teaching hospital. Come 1940 she was arrested, interned in Port St Mary. The younger sister was allowed to stay in London and complete her nursing course. By mid 1941 there was such a shortage of medically qualified personnel that she was released, the BMA relented, she worked as a Doctor in London through the war, and then as a GP. She stayed in contact with the owners of the property she was billeted at for the rest of her life, exchanging letters and cards. We found her aliens landing and registration form at the Manx Museum and a record of her having a pair of shoes repaired at the PtStMary cobblers. When moral panics create folk devils, all Germans or Italians, caught the wrong side of international borders at outbreak of war, are treated with suspicion. Takes time to sort out the goodies from the baddies. The Island, for many, was a much better place than they might have ended up, and incarceration was comparatively benign and short. Whats worrying is that we are in a repeat cycle, much worse, in how we treat current refugees, especially those of different skin hue or religious sect. Thank you John, what an interesting story, I would be interested to know which property she was billeted at (on PSM Prom?), particularly as a PSM lad. I read the 'Island of Barbed Wire' shortly after it was published - very interesting it was too. My book of the moment is 'Looking for trouble' the memoirs of Virginia Cowles. She touches on her experiences of these human traits as a correspondent during the Spanish Civil War and WW2. I agree totally, it's extremely worrying: Bosnia and Herzegovina is brewing at the moment, and the genocides of the Balkans during the 90s seem to be of little deterrent. The world is a dark place! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted February 1, 2022 Author Share Posted February 1, 2022 28 minutes ago, Will Halsall said: Thank you John, what an interesting story, I would be interested to know which property she was billeted at (on PSM Prom?), particularly as a PSM lad. I read the 'Island of Barbed Wire' shortly after it was published - very interesting it was too. My book of the moment is 'Looking for trouble' the memoirs of Virginia Cowles. She touches on her experiences of these human traits as a correspondent during the Spanish Civil War and WW2. I agree totally, it's extremely worrying: Bosnia and Herzegovina is brewing at the moment, and the genocides of the Balkans during the 90s seem to be of little deterrent. The world is a dark place! The refugee was Dr Luise Beer born Vienna 25 August 1912. The House was Cronk Airh, and the owners were Quine’s, I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Halsall Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 46 minutes ago, John Wright said: The refugee was Dr Luise Beer born Vienna 25 August 1912. The House was Cronk Airh, and the owners were Quine’s, I think. I will do some digging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gladys Posted February 1, 2022 Share Posted February 1, 2022 Many years ago, the late 80s, I had to have a private medical. I was living in Surrey at the time and the doctor was a retired GP who did medicals as a boost to his pension, I suppose. He was very elderly and spoke with an almost stereotypical guttural German accent. In chatting, I said I was from the IOM and he said that he was interned in the Sefton during WWII. He didn't wax lyrical about his time there but he did smile about the coincidence. He also went on to tell me about how his son, then in his 60s, also suffered from migraines (which was the reason I had to have a medical) and that some foods triggered them which he advised his son to avoid, then said " but you cannot tell your children anything"! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Mexico Posted February 4, 2022 Share Posted February 4, 2022 On 2/1/2022 at 9:56 AM, quilp said: Didn't happen here, apparently. Coincidently, this article appeared in the Guardian this morning. A good read with a brew... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/01/when-britain-imprisoned-refugees-second-world-war-internment-camps There's an online talk by the author on Monday at 8 pm: https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/simon-parkin-the-island-of-extraordinary-captives-tickets-252157970277 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Halsall Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 14 hours ago, Roger Mexico said: There's an online talk by the author on Monday at 8 pm: https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/simon-parkin-the-island-of-extraordinary-captives-tickets-252157970277 Thank you Roger, that's excellent, I have registered to watch that! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Halsall Posted February 9, 2022 Share Posted February 9, 2022 For those interested in some extremely diverse characters that were interned at Hutchinson's Camp at the beginning of WW2, this YouTube clip from the author Simon Parkin (Mon 7th Feb) is well worth watching. Some superb photo's and videos. Thank you @Roger Mexico I enjoyed watching that on Mon eve 👋 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted February 18, 2022 Author Share Posted February 18, 2022 Well, I’ve read the Island of Extraordinary Captives. About to start Barbed Wire University. All I can say about Extraordinary Captives is that it’s very poorly written. The research, despite a huge bibliography, is hit and miss, and there are some obvious howlers. It jumps around. Lots of extraneous padding. It’s a closely typed 475 pages. I started checking, after a friend, also reading, questioned if you could see the Harbour from Hutchinson Square ( you can ), the ferry ( you can ). Later the author says one of his subjects sailed from Liverpool at the start of his internment. I need to check the dates the Island service was swapped out to Fleetwood for strategic reasons. Further he refers to a Manx Politician as EW Farnger ( prominent Advocate, Douglas Councillor and MHK EW Fargher of Dickinsons ) ok, typo and poor proof reading. Then he goes on to say that Ireland was visible in the distance from Hutchinson Square. I nearly gave up. I won’t list the rest of the myriad errors. I persevered. I didn’t relate to the people he’s writing about. Even his main biographical character, Peter Fleischman, is still a cardboard cut out enigma by the time I’d turned the final page. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted February 18, 2022 Author Share Posted February 18, 2022 I was wrong. SS Rushen Castle SS Victoria, the only passenger ships not requisitioned, both served from Liverpool until the end of 1940. Victoria hit a German mine, just off the Mersey Bar on 27 December 1940. No casualties, but after repair she was requisitioned. Rushen Castle was switched to Fleetwood from early 1941 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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