Prayers (Pray for the Island)

[slinkydevil]

 

[Kopek]

stu comin do it all the time. some even have urgent meetings when a vote is due.

[Freggyragh]

13 hours ago, Stu Peters said:

Poco a poco. I was uncomfortable pledging allegiance to Mrs Windsor, but you can't do the job you've been elected to do without crossing your fingers and getting on with it. To Roger's point, no, you can't slide in late or I would.

Warning: rambling thoughts on Stu's comment ahead:

De Valera swore an oath of allegiance to the crown in order to sit in the Dáil, then rewrote the constitution so it wouldn't be required again. Will you be making any attempt to do the same? 

IMHO you shouldn't have a problem swearing allegiance to the Crown, after all, MHKs were self appointed until the Crown intervened. Unlike in other colonies, the Manx struggle for democracy and 'home-rule' was against the Lords of Mann, the self-elected Keys (a mates club of landed gentry) and often the Bishop,— English parliamentarians were often on our side and it was Crown appointee Governor Loch who implemented the reforms. So our history in relation to the Crown really is very different to those of other colonies. 

(To be honest, I'm not a fan of 'monarchy' either, and I wonder what place it has in the modern world. 'Mrs Windsor' herself seems to be an excellent human being of course, but then that is pure luck.)

 

Edited February 4, 2022 by Freggyragh

[Lost Login]

Tradition is a pretty weak argument for keeping prayers. Traditionally the public did not elect members, they were elected by other members and sat for life. Then male members were allowed to vote, then women. The Governor presided over meetings. Miles Walker introduced the ministerial system, sittings are recorded, constituency boundaries have changed as have the number of MHKs per constituency. They were all changes to tradition and far more profound than removing payers.

I appreciate that Christian's may have a different view but religion these days should have no place in the work place, unless you are employed by a religious organisation. Why should a person who is not religious be required to pray or worship a God they don't believe in?  Why should a Muslim or Hindu be required to pray or worship a God they don't believe in? We are no longer required to swear on bibles in court etc so why keep the practice in Tynwald. Only a small majority regularly attend church, the practice of saying prayers before you went to bed, or saying grace before eating have long gone so why hark back to a bygone age?

I would like to see an update to many of the practices in Tynwald. Why these days is it a requirement to still have to wear a jacket and tie in a sitting and if it is hot why do you need the permission of the president or speaker to take your jacket office. Yes be smart and presentable but the days of ties being standard business attire have long gone.  

If they are going to keep then the idea that members are required to attend is ridiculous. If the requirement to attend remains member's should simply stand up for their principals and skip if they wish to. What is the speaker or president going to do? They would look pretty daft suspending or punishing members for refusing to attend prayers to a god a they don't believe in.

  

[Stu Peters]

8 hours ago, Kopek said:

stu comin do it all the time. some even have urgent meetings when a vote is due.

Not in my experience, but I've only been in for 4 months.

[hissingsid]

We are talking about 80 seconds here and it is tradition what are you going to do on Tynwald Day feel uncomfortable for the entire service at the St Johns chapel ?

[Lost Login]

2 minutes ago, hissingsid said:

We are talking about 80 seconds here and it is tradition what are you going to do on Tynwald Day feel uncomfortable for the entire service at the St Johns chapel ?

It may be a tradition but so what? As I posted in my previous post the IoM long ago scrapped the "tradition" of members not being elected, women not being able to vote, 16 and 17 not being able to vote. Do you want to re-instate all of those traditions as well?

As for the church service at St John's nothing wrong with a church service their on Tynwald day or any other day of the week, but attendance should be entirely voluntary. 

Time and society has moved on and so should Tynwald. The amount of time it takes each week is irrelevant in my view. There is no place for pointless anachronisms. It is not a case of there is no place for pointless anachronisms unless they only take a few minutes. 

[Lost Login]

41 minutes ago, Stu Peters said:

Not in my experience, but I've only been in for 4 months.

If you stood by your principles and only entered the Chamber after prayers what would the punishment be beyond being told your are a very naughty boy by somebody dressed up a costume

[Mr. Sausages]

Forgive these MHKs, Manannan. They know not what they do.

[joebean]

Wouid it be possible to also call a halt to the “tradition” of our male MHKs looking complete twats on Tynwald day by wearing Victorian era fancy dress? It would help make them look more relevant and to be taken seriously. Can you take this up Stu Peters? Only the particularly pompous would object. 

[Stu Peters]

3 hours ago, Lost Login said:

If you stood by your principles and only entered the Chamber after prayers what would the punishment be beyond being told your are a very naughty boy by somebody dressed up a costume

I abide by rules, so don't intend to push the point. I didn't raise this issue, but would opt out of mandated prayers if given the option. It's not a big deal either way. And yes Sidney, I will feel awkward being in St John's Chapel in a rented suit in July, but as it's part of the job I signed up to do I'll play the game whilst thinking of more important things.

[joebean]

8 minutes ago, Stu Peters said:

I abide by rules, so don't intend to push the point. I didn't raise this issue, but would opt out of mandated prayers if given the option. It's not a big deal either way. And yes Sidney, I will feel awkward being in St John's Chapel in a rented suit in July, but as it's part of the job I signed up to do I'll play the game whilst thinking of more important things.

I agree Stu, to a point. But things don’t modernise themselves; they are modernised by those that push for change. Relevance is the result of people wanting to appear relevant and to be doing relevant things. Wigs and top hats are for those who are more interested in the importance of being rather than doing. 

[hissingsid]

I know you did not raise this issue Stu, Daphne Caine did in her maiden speech she got nowhere then and has obviously been waiting for another five minutes in the sunshine.   But you have become the focus of the attention as the person who is not comfortable.    However the matter has now been given an airing and there are much more pressing things to attend to I am sure.

[SleepyJoe]

It's World Interfaith Harmony Week this week

[interestedman]

From the UK parliament website (just out of interest):

Prayers

Sittings in both Houses begin with prayers. These follow the Christian faith and there is currently no multi-faith element. Attendance is voluntary.

House of Commons

The Speaker's Chaplain usually reads the prayers. The form of the main prayer is as follows:

"Lord, the God of righteousness and truth, grant to our Queen and her government, to Members of Parliament and all in positions of responsibility, the guidance of your Spirit. May they never lead the nation wrongly through love of power, desire to please, or unworthy ideals but laying aside all private interests and prejudices keep in mind their responsibility to seek to improve the condition of all mankind; so may your kingdom come and your name be hallowed.

Amen."

House of Lords

A senior Bishop (Lord Spiritual) who sits in the Lords usually reads the prayers. Prayers are read at the beginning of each sitting. The text of the Prayers read in the House of Lords are printed in the Companion to the Standing Orders.

• Read the Lords' Prayers for the Parliament

 

Custom and practice

The practice of prayers is believed to have started in about 1558, and was common practice by 1567. The present form of prayers probably dates from the reign of Charles II. Members of the public are not allowed into the public galleries during prayers.

MPs and Peers stand for prayers facing the wall behind them. It is thought this practice developed due to the difficulty Members would historically have faced of kneeling to pray while wearing a sword.