Prayers (Pray for the Island)

[A fool and his money.....]

1 hour ago, Passing Time said:

Her Majesty is lord of Man aka your landlord. 

Indeed, but that's my point. This thread is about modernising Tynwald. It's the 21st century and we live in an hereditary monarchy - that's the mother of all elephants in the room when discussing the modernisation of our political system. It's very costly (in the form of the equally undemocratic and irrelevant governor) , undemocratic and completely meaningless in modern times. Don't get me wrong, I've nothing against the queen, she seems like a gracious and respectable old lady - I just don't see that as a reason to forgo a modern parliamentary democracy that better represents and respects the will of the good people of the island. It's not as if the suggestion is without logic or precedence. 

Sadly our elected representatives seem more interested in modernisation that will benefit themselves rather than the democracy of the people they represent.

[Passing Time]

14 hours ago, A fool and his money..... said:

Indeed, but that's my point. This thread is about modernising Tynwald. It's the 21st century and we live in an hereditary monarchy - that's the mother of all elephants in the room when discussing the modernisation of our political system. It's very costly (in the form of the equally undemocratic and irrelevant governor) , undemocratic and completely meaningless in modern times. Don't get me wrong, I've nothing against the queen, she seems like a gracious and respectable old lady - I just don't see that as a reason to forgo a modern parliamentary democracy that better represents and respects the will of the good people of the island. It's not as if the suggestion is without logic or precedence. 

Sadly our elected representatives seem more interested in modernisation that will benefit themselves rather than the democracy of the people they represent.

You think getting rid of the monarchy would greatly improve Tynwald...

[A fool and his money.....]

29 minutes ago, Passing Time said:

You think getting rid of the monarchy would greatly improve Tynwald...

That's not what I've said though is it. First of all the monarchy is not ours to get rid of, that's entirely a decision for the people of the UK.

What I did say is that removing the requirement for our legislation to gain royal assent, and the need for us to pay for an unelected, demeaning and irrelevant in modern times governor would make our political system more democratic. This can only be a good thing.

Say what you like about our MHK's ( and I regularly do) at least we have elected them to where they are, and we can get rid of them too.

Hereditary monarchies have not been common in the world since the early twentieth century and the world is a far more peaceful and equitable place for it. Our current political system is an archaic nonsense in world terms and has been for over a century.

A move towards greater democracy here is long overdue and can only be a good thing for the people of the island.

I think it's very disappointing that our elected representatives either think that greater democracy is too radical an idea to even discuss or they can't be arsed discussing it and would prefer to "modernise" Tynwald by increasing their own comfort for 5 minutes every month.

[Passing Time]

5 hours ago, A fool and his money..... said:

That's not what I've said though is it. First of all the monarchy is not ours to get rid of, that's entirely a decision for the people of the UK.

What I did say is that removing the requirement for our legislation to gain royal assent, and the need for us to pay for an unelected, demeaning and irrelevant in modern times governor would make our political system more democratic. This can only be a good thing.

Say what you like about our MHK's ( and I regularly do) at least we have elected them to where they are, and we can get rid of them too.

Hereditary monarchies have not been common in the world since the early twentieth century and the world is a far more peaceful and equitable place for it. Our current political system is an archaic nonsense in world terms and has been for over a century.

A move towards greater democracy here is long overdue and can only be a good thing for the people of the island.

I think it's very disappointing that our elected representatives either think that greater democracy is too radical an idea to even discuss or they can't be arsed discussing it and would prefer to "modernise" Tynwald by increasing their own comfort for 5 minutes every month.

This is what you get when people vote in unemployable people. There's a small group of MHK's who could be useful but there are a bigger group who are a total waste of space. It's been said many times, reduce the number of MHK'S/MLC's and go for quality over quantity

[Chie]

Personally. I don't think there should be any link between religion and government. To say that prayer reinforces morality is absolute nonsense. Religious custom or belief does not equal morality anymore than the removal of religious custom from government equals less morality. Religion has historically shown itself to be a severely destructive force that has sought to abuse and persecute discriminately based on the fancy fairy tales of a very contradictory book written during an era of less evolved ways of thinking. Even in the modern world we see the persecution of various sub sections of society that all have a basis of thought in the re enforced religious "morals", views and beliefs the church has imposed on humankind over the last 2000 years. You only have to look back at ancient cultures and civilisations to see what was accepted then vs what was accepted once Christianity and any other major religion entered the arena. As an atheist if I ever was to to be subject to any kind of prayer before a certain activity commenced there would be no acknowledgement of righteousness because of it and any surface acceptance would be considered lip service at best. You can't even take anything a priest tells you about the morality of religion seriously as any attempt to follow such a belief requires defying half of it also.

Remove it. Move on. Move forward.

[Declan]

It's quite despicable to say "if you don't toe the line, observe religion exactly as I see fit, then no Christmas for you." If the Christians forbade atheists from celebrating Christmas, we'd just invent another reason have a party, and see love ones  during the coldest, darkest days of the year. We always have.

[Declan]

Not really. The marking the winter solstice  predates Christianity by millennia.

Changing Tynwald traditions (although not neccessarily this one) is the first step to a better Island. In this case though, it was a short debate, quickly resolved I don't see there's been an opportunity cost on other issues.

Edited February 6, 2022 by Declan

[GD4ELI]

42 minutes ago, Manx17 said:

The thing is these lot have found time to debate about a prayer, but will they be giving up Christian holidays? I think not and I wouldn’t believe them for a second if they were to say that they don’t celebrate Christian celebrations. I’m horrified that whilst people are going around in pain or half blind and other illnesses as they have been left for years on waiting lists and getting into poverty as they can’t work.They think not saying a little prayer is more important. Whilst those suffering are probably praying every day hoping the money they have put in the system all their lives, this new bunch will do something about it. But no , it’s still all about them. 

Christmas holidays were originally Pagan holidays, look this up. Christians usurped existing traditions.

[Declan]

Just now, Manx17 said:

Of course there is a cost, every day a person is left in pain is a cost. They are not important enough and won’t be in office for the next 100 years. They should be ashamed of themselves. 

But the vote hasn't had any impact on waiting lists. Had they not had the vote that time it wouldn't have been used performing operations, or recruiting doctors. Unless you believe in the power of prayer to heal the discussion  had no impact on healthcare.

[hissingsid]

The thing that is really winding people up is that when the Island is facing so many issues on every front this non productive and highly divisive subject is given an airing.   It was brought up at the beginning of the last governments tenure and got knocked back but here we go again just to satisfy an ego trip. The police are tied up dealing with a growing drug problem, the hospital is skint, again, and , understaffed and having to employ agencies from across to do the backlog of eye operations.  The housing situation is dire, businesses are suffering, the promenade is a disappointment to a lot of people, the essential landing stage is costing fortunes..don’t even mention the flumes, the TT is happening hopefully 🤭 it is like looking down a black tunnel at the minute to a lot of people who have been drained emotionally and physically this past two years.   We need to pull together….for god’s sake Daphne go and save some polar bears that is the mission you have been given.

[Chie]

1 hour ago, Manx17 said:

Why would you want to celebrate Christmas, if your not a Christian do you not find it hypocritical?  I think it’s wrong. If you have put yourself forward to make a better island and your first call is to change Tynwald tradition. What makes them so important? Was it in their manifesto whilst knocking on doors wanting votes? 

 

Christmas is nothing more than a Christianisation of a series of more ancient pagan festivals. Saturnalia or the winter solstice being the most well known. You can very easily and in fact do celebrate Christmas without giving any real thought to what Christianity would have you believe it’s all about. Trees, Yule logs, gift giving, mistletoe, feasting etc etc are all derived from ancient pagan customs and practices. Many years ago when the church first stepped foot on these lands they found it incredibly difficult to convert the population to a belief in their new god. Their answer to this was to appropriate the locals various customs and beliefs and Christianise them in the hope that rather than replacing one belief system with another immediately. They would instead go through a more comfortable transition where they could keep their practices and customs but the focus would not be on the ancient gods but rather their one true god. If you visit the various ancient churches found around the U.K. you will find various engravings on the walls, wood, seating etc etc done by those very early local “converts” to allow them to pay lip service to the church and continue to worship the gods of their land.

Christmas wasn’t the only festival that was appropriated either. Easter was originally the celebration of Ostara which is where the word Easter comes from. You have Halloween which the Catholics appropriated to All Hallows’ Eve. New Year’s Day, St Johns Eve and Valentines Day to name but a few. Birthdays while not a Christian event, have their roots and derive from an ancient pagan custom also.

This is the reason why Jehovah’s Witnesses do not celebrate any of these holidays. They do not want to engage in what are essentially pagan practices.

So, to say that observing Christmas is hypocritical is absolutely nonsensical. There is nothing truly Christian about it beyond a few carols and a vague claim regarding a manger and a virgin birth. The latter of which I am convinced was Mary’s way of getting around that one night stand she had with the fisherman’s son nine months prior to Jesus birth.

[SleepyJoe]

15 hours ago, Passing Time said:

This is what you get when people vote in unemployable people. There's a small group of MHK's who could be useful but there are a bigger group who are a total waste of space. It's been said many times, reduce the number of MHK'S/MLC's and go for quality over quantity

LegCo by their voting prevented an amendment agreed by a majority of Keys members going though in Cannan's extraordinary Tynwald last week I believe 

The future of this appointed rather than democratically elected body should now be considered

Sometimes the more forward looking MLCs put forward considered amendments to parliamentary business

Sometimes they are a block on progress

[HeliX]

2 hours ago, Manx17 said:

Why would you want to celebrate Christmas, if your not a Christian do you not find it hypocritical?  I think it’s wrong. If you have put yourself forward to make a better island and your first call is to change Tynwald tradition. What makes them so important? Was it in their manifesto whilst knocking on doors wanting votes? 

 

Christmas and Christianity separated a long time ago. For most Christmas is a celebration of family and friends now. 

[A fool and his money.....]

2 hours ago, Declan said:

 

Changing Tynwald traditions (although not neccessarily this one) is the first step to a better Island. 

If that's the case then why are our elected politicians so reluctant to even discuss it? 

You would have thought a first step to a better island would be a better motivation for a politician than increasing your own comfort for a few minutes once a month.

What was the outcome of the debate?

[hissingsid]

I think it is next week after all they have not got anything more pressing to worry about.    The real tragedy is that we have got nearly five years more of these clowns in power.