Prayers (Pray for the Island)

[Kopek]

nein, amazon ist tot.

[2112]

The great attention seekers in the HoK are having their little debate today, and amongst the recommendations is a period of reflection/silence. I would happily agree. How about permanent silence and not just for a couple of minutes. The report into this matter was interesting in the submissions made, particularly some of the newer members. What’s going to happen is if one tradition is dropped in the name of progress, the same members will be emboldened and will start chipping away at other aspects, which they may feel uncomfortable with. 

[Holte End]

What are these sleight of hand magicians hiding. Somewhere in standing orders, there must be something everyone's missing. Tax increases, gas increases,  A hugh pay award for civil servants, while media mass hysteria over prayers.

[asitis]

1 hour ago, 2112 said:

and will start chipping away at other aspects, which they may feel uncomfortable with. 

The Nolan Principles perchance !

[A fool and his money.....]

The Eisenhower principal woul be a good Idea for them. 

Perhaps then the pay rise for the multi million pound gas company would be being discussed 4 months after a rise in minimum wage, rather than the other way around.

[HeliX]

1 hour ago, 2112 said:

the same members will be emboldened and will start chipping away at other aspects, which they may feel uncomfortable with. 

Good. Tradition is a poor defence of an action. Either something stands up by itself or it doesn't. 

[2112]

1 hour ago, asitis said:

The Nolan Principles perchance !

That’s already happening. Constant erosion and evasion, both from politicians and senior civil servants.

[Barlow]

One of the chaps in Positive Action Group has always had a bee in his bonnet about this and has lobbied for years since he came to the Island, perhaps he would not understand the nuances in the Manx way of life.

Most of us grew up with prayers at school, many of us went to Sunday School, Sunshine Corner (!), and have fond memories of harvest festivals and carols in church, married in church etc and have a general respect for the Christian ways.

Well done Mr Callister for standing up for the Manx way of life.

I think any change from the new guard, and the nouveau Manx should wait until the older generations die off first before meddling with our ways.

[quilp]

They should think about swearing a forthright oath and allegiance to the people they serve. Rather than symbolically seeking divine confirmation and guidance from an unprovable entity over the job they do.

1 hour ago, Barlow said:

One of the chaps in Positive Action Group has always had a bee in his bonnet about this and has lobbied for years since he came to the Island, perhaps he would not understand the nuances in the Manx way of life.

One of the nuances in the Manx way of life is also the growing number of people who define themselves as having no religion. On the other hand there is also a growing number from other faiths seeking residency, what about their considerations?

1 hour ago, Barlow said:

Most of us grew up with prayers at school, many of us went to Sunday School, Sunshine Corner (!), and have fond memories of harvest festivals and carols in church, married in church etc and have a general respect for the Christian ways.

Yes, the sense of community inspired by all of the above is a good thing for society in general, the coming together, the shared experience, all very strong but it is losing its appeal. Exemplified by the falling numbers in congregants, and as mentioned, the growing number who define themselves as having no religion. The importance of this ritual is being re-considered, the significance and symbolism questioned. This is the modern world.

1 hour ago, Barlow said:

... the nouveau Manx should wait until the older generations die off first before meddling with our ways.

Blimey, you're not serious. Who are the "nouveau Manx" what do they look and sound like?

[hissingsid]

It was brought up in the last Tynwald by Caine and dismissed perhaps she thinks with some younger members it will be passed this time.   Good on Rob for stating the case for keeping the 80 second prayer.   I do think however that the time spent discussing this could have been used more productively considering the situation the Island is in at the minute.   The only thing that is flourishing is the food bank and that is sad it is like returning to Victorian times with soup kitchens.    With all that is going on it is like looking down a very dark tunnel with no end in sight.

[Kopek]

The option not to attend the prayers bit is something of a compromise. It could be just as good to provide a room for those who want to pray?

There is being a Christian and having christian values, the latter is nothing to do with religion, many Christians do not follow these values.

[HeliX]

45 minutes ago, hissingsid said:

It was brought up in the last Tynwald by Caine and dismissed perhaps she thinks with some younger members it will be passed this time.

It'll be gone in the next 10 years if not now. It's over. We're a secular nation.

[2112]

4 minutes ago, Kopek said:

The option not to attend the prayers bit is something of a compromise. It could be just as good to provide a room for those who want to pray?

There is being a Christian and having christian values, the latter is nothing to do with religion, many Christians do not follow these values.

As a taxpayer there are lots of things that I pay for and don’t use, perhaps I could pay a bit less tax? That’s a compromise.

All that rumpus over 80 secs at the beginning of a sitting. Anyone would think their (real) human rights have been eroded. I am for progress, but this was a pathetic stand, not for principle but to stick one over the establishment. However, the likes of Daffy, Fargher, Cretney Jnr, Spuan Juan et al will be crawling all over the establishment and nosing in the trough when it suits. If these clowns had a principle and really believed in their cause, perhaps they would stick 2 fingers up and turned up after prayers. 

[2112]

2 minutes ago, HeliX said:

It'll be gone in the next 10 years if not now. It's over. We're a secular nation.

Perhaps they will get rid of Tynwald Day, the island doesn’t need the expense or a day of lost productivity. The same should apply to Senior Race Day, another archaic holiday, and another lost day of productivity. If we are a secular nation as you claim, then Motorsports and Cycling should take precedence over Church on Sundays (practices and racing in the afternoon to allow for Sunday worship). 

[HeliX]

1 minute ago, 2112 said:

Perhaps they will get rid of Tynwald Day, the island doesn’t need the expense or a day of lost productivity. The same should apply to Senior Race Day, another archaic holiday, and another lost day of productivity. If we are a secular nation as you claim, then Motorsports and Cycling should take precedence over Church on Sundays (practices and racing in the afternoon to allow for Sunday worship). 

Tynwald Day and Senior Race Day stand on their own merit aside from any "tradition". That's the point.

I'm sure you can see the difference between abolishing Church on Sundays for members of the public, and removing prayers from Government. One is a removal of religious freedom, one is not.