ManxTaxPayer Posted February 20, 2022 Share Posted February 20, 2022 12 minutes ago, Josem said: They have been able to temporarily cut their VAT rates because they are normally so incredibly high compared to both the minimum on energy bills, and compared to the UK's VAT rate on energy bills. Are you saying they have been incredibly high as a result of sovereign parliamentary decisions rather than by EU directive? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josem Posted February 21, 2022 Share Posted February 21, 2022 5 minutes ago, ManxTaxPayer said: Are you saying they have been incredibly high as a result of sovereign parliamentary decisions rather than by EU directive? Most absolutely not! You have very clearly misread my post above if you came away with that impression. I'm saying the exact opposite: the Spanish and Belgian Governments are only able to make laws within the constrains of the EU rules, so they are obviously not "sovereign". I assume that the higher taxes on Spanish and Belgian energy bills were implemented by their respective parliaments (so they are probably "parliamentary decisions"), but I'm not very familiar with the legislative history of Spain and Belgium's VAT rate on energy bills. You could probably find out from Google. The fact that the Spanish and Belgian Governments are unable to have full control over their VAT - and the fact that there is a higher power which constrains them - is a very good demonstration that the Spanish and Belgian Governments are not sovereign in these areas. In this respect, the Spanish and Belgian Governments are somewhat similar to the States of the USA or Australia, where a higher authority has legislative power over the states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ManxTaxPayer Posted February 21, 2022 Share Posted February 21, 2022 So what's happening in Poland? I believe they're scrapping VAT altogether on energy bills. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ManxTaxPayer Posted February 21, 2022 Share Posted February 21, 2022 EU countries seem to be able to charge pretty much whatever the fuck they like. I don't understand. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josem Posted February 21, 2022 Share Posted February 21, 2022 Since you still don't understand, you should consider learning how to use Google. Google is free and widely available on the Internet online at Google.com. You can type that web address into your browser to access it. It will help you to find pages such as this which appear to provide a reasonable explanation of what is happening in Poland: https://notesfrompoland.com/2021/12/16/polish-pm-urges-eu-to-allow-vat-cuts-on-fuel-and-food-to-soften-blow-of-inflation/ Alternative search engines allow you to find other information on the Internet too. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quilp Posted February 21, 2022 Share Posted February 21, 2022 Oo-oooh... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheldon Posted February 21, 2022 Share Posted February 21, 2022 7 hours ago, ManxTaxPayer said: EU countries seem to be able to charge pretty much whatever the fuck they like. I don't understand. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Non-Believer Posted February 21, 2022 Share Posted February 21, 2022 With 40% of revenue predicated on tax take for next year and the general state of the Island's finances, one wouldn't imagine that there'll be any haste for tax cuts of any sort from Chancellor Ashford and Treasury? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banker Posted February 21, 2022 Share Posted February 21, 2022 29 minutes ago, Non-Believer said: With 40% of revenue predicated on tax take for next year and the general state of the Island's finances, one wouldn't imagine that there'll be any haste for tax cuts of any sort from Chancellor Ashford and Treasury? I would think taxes will need to go up to pay for everything that’s planned plus social care with Ashford already saying we need to discuss how the social care costs will be funded. Ashie is in Mannin line today so presumably some questions around taxes will be answered Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asitis Posted February 21, 2022 Share Posted February 21, 2022 3 minutes ago, Banker said: Ashie is in Mannin line today so presumably some questions around taxes will be answered Ashford answering a question ? that'll be a first ! 1 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted February 21, 2022 Share Posted February 21, 2022 9 hours ago, Josem said: Because the EU rules mandate a minimum of 5% VAT in this area. I am not saying you are wrong with the above statement, however.... 8 hours ago, Josem said: what is happening in Poland: https://notesfrompoland.com/2021/12/16/polish-pm-urges-eu-to-allow-vat-cuts-on-fuel-and-food-to-soften-blow-of-inflation/ Be careful with using statements by the Polish Government to back up claims. The Polish Government is very much a Nationalist party and one that doesn't much like the EU and like the UK's Brexit supporters they are not adverse to stretching the truth to breaking point. Take the article you have linked and look at this quote; "During a summit in Brussels on Wednesday, Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki said he had petitioned the European Commission to allow for a temporary lowering of value-added tax on fuel from the current 23% to 8%. “This will be a significant anti-inflationary impulse,” he declared." Why, if the EU sets a minimum of 5%, is the Polish Prime Minister petitioning the EU to let him lower the VAT to 8%. Based on your previous statement he would not need permission to do so and could in fact lower it to 5% without an issue with the EU. This is largely political posturing on behalf of the Polish PM and is very similar to the crap spouted by brexiteers over bendy banana's and pillows for kippers etc. The Polish Government are also in dispute with the EU over logging in the Bialowieza Forest which is a UNESCO world heritage site (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-56341837) and also over coal mining (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/20/poland-vows-to-keep-coalmine-open-despite-500000-a-day-ecj-fine). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Login Posted February 21, 2022 Share Posted February 21, 2022 10 hours ago, Josem said: (Unfortunately, the hold-up appears to be the European Union's continued control over Northern Ireland in this area. Since any reduction in UK VAT on energy bills would not apply to Northern Ireland, the UK Government does not want to introduce this policy, because it would lead to differential tax policies on fuel bills between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK) The UK Govt probably have no interest in reducing their tax take. The EU was a for a long time somebody the UK government could pass the buck to when they did not want to take a course of action but did not want to take any blame for. It was easy to stand up and say we would love to but... Now the UK has left the EU most of the things the UK blamed the EU from preventing the UK from doing the EU is still not doing. Similarly the UK is now basically saying that most things they are doing that might be popular are because the UK has left the EU e.g. vaccine roll out, freeports Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Non-Believer Posted February 21, 2022 Share Posted February 21, 2022 3 hours ago, Banker said: I would think taxes will need to go up to pay for everything that’s planned plus social care with Ashford already saying we need to discuss how the social care costs will be funded. Ashie is in Mannin line today so presumably some questions around taxes will be answered Will anybody ask him, "Are we still a low-tax jurisdiction" I wonder...? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josem Posted February 21, 2022 Share Posted February 21, 2022 2 hours ago, manxman1980 said: Why, if the EU sets a minimum of 5%, is the Polish Prime Minister petitioning the EU to let him lower the VAT to 8%. Based on your previous statement he would not need permission to do so and could in fact lower it to 5% without an issue with the EU. Because the EU's provisions on VAT requires a minimum rate of 15% of VAT on most things (standard rate), and a minimum rate of 5% of VAT on some things (eg, home heating) which are specifically identified by the EU in their directive. I think that the bit you highlighted (seeking a lowered VAT rate to 8%) is referring to an item (petrol*) which is covered by the standard rate, and not normally eligible for a lower rate. You can read the directive online in full here: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:02006L0112-20210701&from=EN However, there's a reasonable and pretty clear English language explanation of this issue from the BBC in 2016 available online here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36430504 The simple facts are these: a) The EU mandates a minimum VAT rate of 5% on home gas. Despite the confusion sowed by the anonymous clown above (trying to confuse readers with Spain's temporary reduction to 10%, and Belgium's temporary reduction to 6%) this is undisputed. b) This EU 5% minimum applies to Northern Ireland. The EU does not have the authority to impose this on Scotland/Wales/England. c) The UK Government does not want to introduce differential VAT rates between NI and the rest of the UK. *I'm very uncertain about the tax treatment of Polish petrol, but this is a pretty bizarre tangent generated by the so-called "ManxTaxPayer" who claims that he/she does not "understand". It is sad that we have people participating in bad-faith like the so-called "ManxTaxPayer" trying to confuse y'all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banker Posted February 21, 2022 Share Posted February 21, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, Lost Login said: The UK Govt probably have no interest in reducing their tax take. The EU was a for a long time somebody the UK government could pass the buck to when they did not want to take a course of action but did not want to take any blame for. It was easy to stand up and say we would love to but... Now the UK has left the EU most of the things the UK blamed the EU from preventing the UK from doing the EU is still not doing. Similarly the UK is now basically saying that most things they are doing that might be popular are because the UK has left the EU e.g. vaccine roll out, freeports UK said it doesn’t want to reduce VAT on fuel as everyone including millionaires benefit so they want targeted help which is what we are doing, I personally think this is best way. Ashie just mentioned Covid costs £200m+ Edited February 21, 2022 by Banker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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