The Phantom Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 18 minutes ago, The Phantom said: Err, and China? To be honest I don't think any European/US sanctions are going to make much of a difference to Russia. It's just going to push Russia closer to China for everything and I'm sure nothing bad will happen when they get together. China will be watching the world reaction to gauge what they can get away with in Taiwan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Sausages Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 25 minutes ago, Andy Onchan said: It all started during the Blair years. Better not let Blair decide the sanctions then. Vote him out. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Onchan Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 (edited) There was a Grumann drone flying around the area earlier: Edited February 24, 2022 by Andy Onchan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 I think much of this problem is the fault of the West. I can understand why Russia would not want the Ukraine in NATO and it is only hypocrisy for it to be seen as a problem of self determination and unjustified aggression. The United States has made sure that no European or other Great Powers could have a strong economic influence or military presence in the Americas. I am thinking of the Monroe Doctrine and all the interventions of the United States to keep out Soviet influence or topple unfriendly. If a similar situation arose with Mexico, or even a nation state further south, the United States simply would not allow it. Yet here we have a country on Russia's border that would be joining an alliance that was designed for defence against (and for offence) against the Soviet Union. The alliance should have been ended in the early 90s. And it has been America that has beating the war drum here. Maybe I am missing something but I thinks the idea of NATO expansion is completely bonkers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTeapot Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 1 hour ago, Andy Onchan said: This is the end of Putin, politically. He's now persona non-grata with most of the world. His only support comes from similar unstable leaders like Lukashenko. I don't think he gives a shit. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Onchan Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 21 minutes ago, TheTeapot said: I don't think he gives a shit. He does but only about himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 26 minutes ago, La_Dolce_Vita said: I think much of this problem is the fault of the West. I can understand why Russia would not want the Ukraine in NATO and it is only hypocrisy for it to be seen as a problem of self determination and unjustified aggression. Yet here we have a country on Russia's border that would be joining an alliance that was designed for defence against (and for offence) against the Soviet Union. When was the last time NATO was aggressive towards Russia (or the Soviet Union/USSR)? Don't forget that Russia annexed the Crimea two years ago and hardly anyone batted an eyelid. Russia also has a habit of having puppet states such as Belarus to do their bidding as well. The Ukraine would feel pretty justified in requesting membership of NATO given that the country border both Russia and Belarus. Putin is also saying he doesn't want a NATO member right on the border with Russia, however, if he does occupy Ukraine then he will have exactly that. Doesn't make much sense does it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 25 minutes ago, La_Dolce_Vita said: I think much of this problem is the fault of the West. I can understand why Russia would not want the Ukraine in NATO and it is only hypocrisy for it to be seen as a problem of self determination and unjustified aggression. The United States has made sure that no European or other Great Powers could have a strong economic influence or military presence in the Americas. I am thinking of the Monroe Doctrine and all the interventions of the United States to keep out Soviet influence or topple unfriendly. If a similar situation arose with Mexico, or even a nation state further south, the United States simply would not allow it. Yet here we have a country on Russia's border that would be joining an alliance that was designed for defence against (and for offence) against the Soviet Union. The alliance should have been ended in the early 90s. And it has been America that has beating the war drum here. Maybe I am missing something but I thinks the idea of NATO expansion is completely bonkers. You are really saying if a peaceful democratic society wished to join a security alliance a non-peaceful non-democatic neighbour has a veto on this. Before getting into the nitty gritty of who is and isn't a democracy or peaceful country let's just start with the general principles of what is and is not bonkers. Putin is antidemocratic. He wishes to use violence to install a compliant autocrat who will ignore the democratic will and follow Putin's dictats. Belarus is a near perfect example. Opposing that isn't bonkers. Ensuring deterrence against that isn't bonkers. It is very sad deterrence has failed and possibly that is NATO's policy failure as Putin pushed in Chechnya, Georgia, Crimea etc without a sufficient western response to his use of violence to enforce his geopolitical sphere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2bees Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Roxanne said: And Trump. Don’t forget Trump. It wouldn't have got this far if he'd still been in charge, say what you like he was a good peacemaker. Biden is not. I'm just going to listen to The Orb until this is all over. Edited February 24, 2022 by 2bees 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Sausages Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 11 minutes ago, 2bees said: It wouldn't have got this far if he'd still been in charge, say what you like he was a good peacemaker. Biden is not. I'm just going to listen to The Orb until this is all over. Trump said it’s a brilliant move by Putin. He is in favour of the invasion. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 53 minutes ago, 2bees said: It wouldn't have got this far if he'd still been in charge, say what you like he was a good peacemaker. Biden is not. I'm just going to listen to The Orb until this is all over. Trump was in bed with Russia, China and North Korea... I see he has hailed Putin as a "genius" https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/feb/23/trump-putin-genius-russia-ukraine-crisis and claimed that this would not have happened had he been President. I suspect that is because he would have ignored Russia taking control of parts of the Ukraine and would probably have moved to disband NATO at the request of Putin. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTeapot Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 3 hours ago, Roxanne said: Current Ukraine airspace… Absolutely mind boggling. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman34 Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 The traitorous nature of Brexit is now clearly revealed. Russia has funded and encouraged right wing stooges, money launderers and other criminals to weaken Europe and spout his disinformation - Farage is still at it today, blaming NATO for Russian murder and aggression in a sovereign state, The Conservative party and its fellow travellers are in hock to Russia, and the UK has been left as a squawking irrelevance as the US and EU take the real decisions, the north of Ireland is destabilised, Scotland is likely to vote itself out of the union, and the economy will nosedive. Divide and conquer wins again. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opusManx Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 3 minutes ago, Roxanne said: I’ve just caught Volodymyr Zelenskyy's plea to the Russian people. He says (rightly) that it will not be broadcast in Russia but appeals to them to let their fellow citizens know of it. Quite heartbreaking to listen to. Sincere, from the heart and unmistakably emotional. He’s right, the only chance of stopping this is with the people rising up to say no. I hope he succeeds. Unfortunately, they are arresting them almost immediately, as I saw on newsreel from Moscow just now. His security are teaming about everywhere. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opusManx Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 3 minutes ago, Roxanne said: But none of that matters so long as the 1% are still making money. It bloody stinks. Yep. Follow the money...all talk of democracy, workers rights, levelling up, freedom, sunlit uplands...just a smokecreen for personal greed and ego fulfillment. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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