The Phantom Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 3 hours ago, manxman1980 said: I also believe it is unethical to benefit from wars so I personally find the fact that you hold shares in businesses that produce weapons rather abhorrent. I do too and I specifically bought the shares at the start of conflict. Although I did have a little chat with myself and thought do I want to profit from war. Knowing that the weaponry would be largely destined for Ukraine and used against Putin and Russia (who are particularly unethical), I figured the ethics kind of balanced out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RecklessAbandon Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 10 minutes ago, The Phantom said: I do too and I specifically bought the shares at the start of conflict. Although I did have a little chat with myself and thought do I want to profit from war. Knowing that the weaponry would be largely destined for Ukraine and used against Putin and Russia (who are particularly unethical), I figured the ethics kind of balanced out. Does profit make it easier when you dehumanise the people on the end of the bombs and bullets? The munitions are still there to kill people (not this faceless blob called Russia). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Phantom Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 5 minutes ago, RecklessAbandon said: Does profit make it easier when you dehumanise the people on the end of the bombs and bullets? The munitions are still there to kill people (not this faceless blob called Russia). If you support the notion of arming Ukraine against Russia, you support the use of those weapons being used to kill Russians. Ethically I don't see a difference between supporting it and profiting from it. Although of course the majority of these 'defence stocks' (Rolls Royce, BAE etc) don't only create weaponry, so it's not really a 100% direct profit from the conflict. It's not like I've instigated the war and I'm not receiving funds from looted dead Russians. I have also donated quite significant sums to NGOs working out there, probably more than I have to any other kind of charity or 'good cause'. Arguably, some of these funds could be considered netted off against the profits from the shares. Again balancing out the ethics somewhat. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RecklessAbandon Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 3 minutes ago, The Phantom said: If you support the notion of arming Ukraine against Russia, you support the use of those weapons being used to kill Russians. Do I support the arming of a state that has been invaded by an aggressor state? Yes (although I wonder when we are going to start arming the people of Gaza). Profiting from it, that is where I draw the line. But what ever lets you sleep at night I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Passing Time Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 6 hours ago, manxman1980 said: I also believe it is unethical to benefit from wars so I personally find the fact that you hold shares in businesses that produce weapons rather abhorrent. On that basis, I suppose you don't bother with Apple or Nike or any of the other huge corporations that exploit humans in the search for cheap labour... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 41 minutes ago, Passing Time said: On that basis, I suppose you don't bother with Apple or Nike or any of the other huge corporations that exploit humans in the search for cheap labour... I try to make ethical choices but the options are prohibited in some areas due to globalisation and the way in which businesses manage their supply chains. You certainly won't find me with any Apple or Nike gear. My pension investments are also set up to focus on ethical investments so no weapons manufacturers, no tobacco companies and a focus on green businesses. It's not perfect but I try to make some difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 3 hours ago, The Phantom said: I do too and I specifically bought the shares at the start of conflict. Although I did have a little chat with myself and thought do I want to profit from war. Knowing that the weaponry would be largely destined for Ukraine and used against Putin and Russia (who are particularly unethical), I figured the ethics kind of balanced out. I obviously don't agree with you profiting but at least I agree with you on supporting Ukraine against the aggressor (who is very unethical). @woolley, however, seeks to profit whilst also saying that Ukraine should just give up half its territory in the hope of some temporary peace. We all know damn well that Putin would not stop with just half of the country and would simply take time to rearm, boost the Russian economy and then go again as he did previously. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Phantom Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 2 hours ago, manxman1980 said: My pension investments are also set up to focus on ethical investments so no weapons manufacturers, no tobacco companies and a focus on green businesses. It's not perfect but I try to make some difference. Good luck with that. I've unfortunately seen clients who have had solely ethical investment portfolios which have absolutely bombed. Of course the investment managers and 'ethical advisors' still took their pound of flesh. Nice guys don't get chicks or make profits. Although admittedly that was about 10/15 years ago before green washing and carbon neutral stuff really got rolling. Might be a bit different now. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 3 hours ago, The Phantom said: Good luck with that. I've unfortunately seen clients who have had solely ethical investment portfolios which have absolutely bombed. Of course the investment managers and 'ethical advisors' still took their pound of flesh. Nice guys don't get chicks or make profits. Although admittedly that was about 10/15 years ago before green washing and carbon neutral stuff really got rolling. Might be a bit different now. "Chicks" are not an issue and I can most definitely assure you that they do like nice guys. My pension is doing just fine. It's not as much as I would like but then again I have never had a final salary pension or in fact any generous pension arrangements because they were all closed to me and many others my age. Personally I think by the time I reach "retirement age" there will be no state pension either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 4 hours ago, The Phantom said: Nice guys don't get chicks or make profits. Although admittedly that was about 10/15 years ago before green washing and carbon neutral stuff really got rolling. Might be a bit different now. It’s not. And doubt it ever will be. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 15 hours ago, manxman1980 said: We keep supporting Ukraine for as long as the people there want us too. If they want to fight for their country then we give them the means too. If they decide to negotiate a peace then we assist where we can. What we don't do is shrug our shoulders and tell Ukraine that they have to be partly or fully annexed. That's what we did with the Crimean Peninsula and look where it ended. I also believe it is unethical to benefit from wars so I personally find the fact that you hold shares in businesses that produce weapons rather abhorrent. It's not so simple. Geopolitics seldom is. Is it right to continue to supply the means to facilitate ongoing death and destruction if we have a very good indication that we are only delaying the inevitable? It isn't a flippant question. We aren't telling Ukraine they have to be fully or partly annexed, but it is looking like a strong possibility whatever we do. Furthermore, in sending weapons whilst stipulating that they can be used only on Ukrainian soil, are we not giving them the means only to prolong the agony for themselves? As for Crimea, it was a part of Ukraine since 1954 owing to an internal transfer within the Soviet Union, and the politics of both Russia and Ukraine are deeply corrupt. If you find weapons production abhorrent, you should be grateful that there are adults in the room prepared to invest in your security. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 8 hours ago, manxman1980 said: I obviously don't agree with you profiting but at least I agree with you on supporting Ukraine against the aggressor (who is very unethical). @woolley, however, seeks to profit whilst also saying that Ukraine should just give up half its territory in the hope of some temporary peace. We all know damn well that Putin would not stop with just half of the country and would simply take time to rearm, boost the Russian economy and then go again as he did previously. He's going to do that anyway. Do you support immediate NATO membership for Ukraine as requested which will trigger an immediate war with Russia? Or are you only prepared to fight to the last Ukrainian? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 6 hours ago, The Phantom said: Good luck with that. I've unfortunately seen clients who have had solely ethical investment portfolios which have absolutely bombed. Of course the investment managers and 'ethical advisors' still took their pound of flesh. Nice guys don't get chicks or make profits. Although admittedly that was about 10/15 years ago before green washing and carbon neutral stuff really got rolling. Might be a bit different now. Not really. Defence stocks currently up about 150% on average in past 3 years or so, while green portfolio (individual stocks and green funds) treads water, variously between 30% down and 30% up, so average at par over a period of high inflation. Lacklustre as an investment for the foreseeable, but the long game may be different - or not. Oh for a crystal ball! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 2 hours ago, manxman1980 said: "Chicks" are not an issue and I can most definitely assure you that they do like nice guys. My pension is doing just fine. It's not as much as I would like but then again I have never had a final salary pension or in fact any generous pension arrangements because they were all closed to me and many others my age. Personally I think by the time I reach "retirement age" there will be no state pension either. Self-praise is no recommendation. Or were you thinking of someone else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 22 hours ago, woolley said: Ukraine cannot overcome Russia. Could Afghanistan overcome the Soviet Union? and then the US? Could Vietnam overcome the USA? Could Iraq overcome the USA? Many a larger power has wasted its blood and treasure and retreated. What makes things so different this time? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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