P.K. Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 1 hour ago, woolley said: It's not so simple. Geopolitics seldom is. Is it right to continue to supply the means to facilitate ongoing death and destruction if we have a very good indication that we are only delaying the inevitable? It isn't a flippant question. We aren't telling Ukraine they have to be fully or partly annexed, but it is looking like a strong possibility whatever we do. Furthermore, in sending weapons whilst stipulating that they can be used only on Ukrainian soil, are we not giving them the means only to prolong the agony for themselves? As for Crimea, it was a part of Ukraine since 1954 owing to an internal transfer within the Soviet Union, and the politics of both Russia and Ukraine are deeply corrupt. I thought the Ukrainians could now fire into Russia hence the punishing strike they received as a consequence the other day. The Russians are turning it into a war of attrition because that makes it one they can win. NATO will not provide enough military aid to enable a Ukrainian victory because of the unknown consequences that might result from it. The problem being the Russians can afford to play a waiting game with idiot Trump bound to do something stupid... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 1 hour ago, woolley said: If you find weapons production abhorrent, you should be grateful that there are adults in the room prepared to invest in your security. 1 hour ago, woolley said: Self-praise is no recommendation. Or were you thinking of someone else? Personal attacks? Really? And you are apparently the adult in the room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 1 hour ago, Chinahand said: Could Afghanistan overcome the Soviet Union? and then the US? Could Vietnam overcome the USA? Could Iraq overcome the USA? Many a larger power has wasted its blood and treasure and retreated. What makes things so different this time? History. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted July 11 Share Posted July 11 19 minutes ago, manxman1980 said: Personal attacks? Really? And you are apparently the adult in the room. That isn't a personal attack. It's an observation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 6 hours ago, Chinahand said: Could Afghanistan overcome the Soviet Union? and then the US? Could Vietnam overcome the USA? Could Iraq overcome the USA? Many a larger power has wasted its blood and treasure and retreated. What makes things so different this time? All of your examples above were a modern power facing a local insurgency. What makes things very different this time is that there are two nuclear powers, Russia and NATO, facing off in Ukraine both armed with the same "smart" modern weaponry fighting in a "conventional" conflict. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 2 hours ago, P.K. said: All of your examples above were a modern power facing a local insurgency. What makes things very different this time is that there are two nuclear powers, Russia and NATO, facing off in Ukraine both armed with the same "smart" modern weaponry fighting in a "conventional" conflict. Didn't the same happen in Afghanistan? A proxy war with one side providing weapons whilst the other was in direct conflict with local forces? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 7 hours ago, woolley said: That isn't a personal attack. It's an observation. Right... You are another one who must win medals for mental gymnastics. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 24 minutes ago, manxman1980 said: Didn't the same happen in Afghanistan? A proxy war with one side providing weapons whilst the other was in direct conflict with local forces? Which time was that? 🙂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 2 hours ago, P.K. said: All of your examples above were a modern power facing a local insurgency. What makes things very different this time is that there are two nuclear powers, Russia and NATO, facing off in Ukraine both armed with the same "smart" modern weaponry fighting in a "conventional" conflict. And which is more expensive in blood and treasure an occupation fighting an insurgency or conventional warfare? Putin's options are to climb down and retreat or the huge cost of continuing warfare or if he breaks through an on going insurgency. Sinking into a swamp of occupation and insurgency is Putin's cheap option. His current conventional war is far more expensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 3 minutes ago, Chinahand said: And which is more expensive in blood and treasure an occupation fighting an insurgency or conventional warfare? Putin's options are to climb down and retreat or the huge cost of continuing warfare or if he breaks through an on going insurgency. Sinking into a swamp of occupation and insurgency is Putin's cheap option. His current conventional war is far more expensive. IMHO Putin will at the very least keep throwing Muzhiks away, after all as far as he's concerned they have no value except to keep him in power, until after the US elections. Because if the dangerous unstable moron Trump gets in he could even take the US out of NATO! The answer to Putin's prayers... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 1 hour ago, P.K. said: Which time was that? 🙂 Pretty much every time that there has been a conflict in Afghanistan. War on terror? Russia supplies weapons to Al-Queda etc Russia invades Afghanistan? USA supplies weapons to the locals The fact that they both provided weapons to the same groups of people in the area at different times is just amusing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Phantom Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 4 hours ago, P.K. said: All of your examples above were a modern power facing a local insurgency. What makes things very different this time is that there are two nuclear powers, Russia and NATO, facing off in Ukraine both armed with the same "smart" modern weaponry fighting in a "conventional" conflict. Not 100% correct. Nuclear yes, smart no. This conflict has exposed Russia as a bit of a paper tiger when it comes to its alleged hi-tech kit. Their top of the range tanks (armata) and aircraft (su-57) are few on the ground and rarely brought into theatre at all. Their Navy is pretty much non existent now in the Black Sea and a joke everywhere else. They are now fielding 1960s tanks and importing drones amongst other stuff from China, Iran and N Korea. Some of their missile stuff is ok, but there is a reason the big attacks only occur sporadically, as they are straight out of the factory. It was different during the Cold War, when their equipment was comparable to that of the West. All they really have going for them now, are shit loads of troops and dumb weaponry mixed with a complete absence of morality regarding their expenditure and use. But it might be enough. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RecklessAbandon Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 12 hours ago, woolley said: you should be grateful that there are adults in the room prepared to invest in your security. Such sneering, anyone would think you are a writer for the Guardian /sarcasm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RecklessAbandon Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 10 hours ago, woolley said: History. He who refuses to learn from history, etc, etc Case in point - Afghanistan and the British since the 1830s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Phantom Posted July 12 Share Posted July 12 Just seen that a Russian plot to kill the CEO of Rheinmetall (probably Europe's biggest defence company) due to their support of Ukraine. https://edition.cnn.com/2024/07/11/politics/us-germany-foiled-russian-assassination-plot/index.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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