The Phantom Posted December 20, 2022 Share Posted December 20, 2022 Another Oligarch has been suicided/attacked by some stairs. https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/russian-businessman-dmitry-zelenov-dies-under-mysterious-circumstances-3619059 The announcements from Russia and the western medias parroting of them are just getting weirder and wierder. They're lying. We know they're lying. They know that we know they are lying, but they still issue these announcements. I know that truth is always the first casualty of war; but this is just getting ridiculous now that it is so blatant. At least with reports like the attacks inside Russia, Ukraine is basically saying 'no comment'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Passing Time Posted December 20, 2022 Share Posted December 20, 2022 3 hours ago, The Phantom said: Another Oligarch has been suicided/attacked by some stairs. https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/russian-businessman-dmitry-zelenov-dies-under-mysterious-circumstances-3619059 The announcements from Russia and the western medias parroting of them are just getting weirder and wierder. They're lying. We know they're lying. They know that we know they are lying, but they still issue these announcements. I know that truth is always the first casualty of war; but this is just getting ridiculous now that it is so blatant. At least with reports like the attacks inside Russia, Ukraine is basically saying 'no comment'. are you insinuating that Russia may be being frugal with the truth... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2bees Posted December 23, 2022 Share Posted December 23, 2022 This situation is absolutely ridiculous, attacking the infrastructure of countries that are as cold as Russia (or the Ukraine for that matter) is so wrong. I feel so sad for both countries. If anyone knows Mr Putin, please may you ask him to make friends with Mr Zelenskyy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Passing Time Posted December 23, 2022 Share Posted December 23, 2022 10 hours ago, 2bees said: This situation is absolutely ridiculous, attacking the infrastructure of countries that are as cold as Russia (or the Ukraine for that matter) is so wrong. I feel so sad for both countries. If anyone knows Mr Putin, please may you ask him to make friends with Mr Zelenskyy? Whilst this is currently a no win situation, I find it extremely bizarre that Putin can attack Ukraine infrastructure whenever he feels like it but Ukraine can't retaliate... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apple Posted December 23, 2022 Share Posted December 23, 2022 11 hours ago, 2bees said: I feel so sad for both countries. If anyone knows Mr Putin, please may you ask him to make friends with Mr Zelenskyy? too late for that I'm afraid. War Crimes etc. The best option is for Putin to be removed, by his own people. I am sure there are a couple of cabals who are getting a little nervous now and and wondering how they can extricate themselves from the crippling sanctions. They can't be happy about seeing how their money is being spent. There has to be a critical point to be reached but ? when that will be. And US standing by to help fund rebuilding in Ukraine - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted December 23, 2022 Share Posted December 23, 2022 1 hour ago, Passing Time said: Whilst this is currently a no win situation, I find it extremely bizarre that Putin can attack Ukraine infrastructure whenever he feels like it but Ukraine can't retaliate... They could do but that would only play into Putin's hand and allow him to make out to the Russian population that Ukraine is the aggressor. I also suspect that NATO members will have given the weapons to Ukraine for defence not an attack into Russian territory. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted December 24, 2022 Share Posted December 24, 2022 On 12/23/2022 at 1:41 PM, manxman1980 said: They could do but that would only play into Putin's hand and allow him to make out to the Russian population that Ukraine is the aggressor. I also suspect that NATO members will have given the weapons to Ukraine for defence not an attack into Russian territory. Such is the state control of the media Putin doesn't have to keep the population sweet. They like it or lump it. Putin visiting Belarus is a concern. One way of bringing about a swift end to the conflict would be the capture of Kyiv (is it now Chicken Kyiv or what?) The Dnipro river makes that difficult which is why, thanks to US Intel, on the previous attempt the Russians were completely creamed. However a two-pronged attack from Belarus could succeed. But fortunately Lukashenko's regime is an authoritative dictatorship and a foray into Ukraine could spark a general uprising and he probably knows it. Plus sanctions from all and sundry? Not a good plan... Winter has slowed things down, even wars get tired, and by the spring Ukraine could be protected by Patriot missiles making life even more difficult for Putin. As to not firing into Russia another go at the Kerch bridge wouldn't go amiss... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Phantom Posted December 24, 2022 Share Posted December 24, 2022 On 12/23/2022 at 12:55 PM, Apple said: The best option is for Putin to be removed, by his own people. I am sure there are a couple of cabals who are getting a little nervous now and and wondering how they can extricate themselves from the crippling sanctions. They've all been suicided. 39 minutes ago, P.K. said: Kyiv (is it now Chicken Kyiv or what? Yep, the M&S ones are now Kyivs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted December 25, 2022 Share Posted December 25, 2022 On 12/23/2022 at 12:29 PM, Passing Time said: Whilst this is currently a no win situation, I find it extremely bizarre that Putin can attack Ukraine infrastructure whenever he feels like it but Ukraine can't retaliate... I don't understand what you find bizarre about it. It's bizarre that the Ukraine doesn't have the ability to retaliate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genericUserName Posted December 26, 2022 Share Posted December 26, 2022 On 12/23/2022 at 12:55 PM, Apple said: The best option is for Putin to be removed, by his own people. I am sure there are a couple of cabals who are getting a little nervous now and and wondering how they can extricate themselves from the crippling sanctions. They can't be happy about seeing how their money is being spent. There has to be a critical point to be reached but ? when that will be. We are conditioned to imagine rainbow revolutions followed by democracy. Or, at best, pragamatic de-escalation. But more likely Putin gets replaced by something worse - or that power splits between rival military groups and warlords. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted December 26, 2022 Share Posted December 26, 2022 On 12/23/2022 at 12:55 PM, Apple said: too late for that I'm afraid. War Crimes etc. The best option is for Putin to be removed, by his own people. I am sure there are a couple of cabals who are getting a little nervous now and and wondering how they can extricate themselves from the crippling sanctions. They can't be happy about seeing how their money is being spent. There has to be a critical point to be reached but ? when that will be. I imagine many Russians will not be happy about the idea of handing the Crimea over, nevermind the Donbas. They have to negotiate at some point and the longer it goes on the more difficult it will be. The US and the lapdog (UK) idea of weakening Russia until the country is forced to negotiate is only a strategy that clearly benefits the US and could mean a very long war. The longer it goes on the higher the stakes though. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted December 26, 2022 Share Posted December 26, 2022 On 12/25/2022 at 10:24 AM, La_Dolce_Vita said: I don't understand what you find bizarre about it. It's bizarre that the Ukraine doesn't have the ability to retaliate? The concern is that NATO weaponry striking into Russia will be viewed as a NATO provocation. However if the Ukrainians use homebrew, which is apparently happening, then NATO has nothing to do with it. Still a bit of a gamble though... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GD4ELI Posted December 26, 2022 Share Posted December 26, 2022 1 hour ago, La_Dolce_Vita said: I imagine many Russians will not be happy about the idea of handing the Crimea over, nevermind the Donbas. They have to negotiate at some point and the longer it goes on the more difficult it will be. The US and the lapdog (UK) idea of weakening Russia until the country is forced to negotiate is only a strategy that clearly benefits the US and could mean a very long war. The longer it goes on the higher the stakes though. This benefits all in NATO and it's working. It's not about defeating Russia, it's about defeating Putin and his cronies. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apple Posted December 26, 2022 Share Posted December 26, 2022 (edited) Putin states ready to negotiate after strike on Russian air base. Could this be the turn around ? Also offering to open gas supply lines to Europe. Edited December 27, 2022 by Apple Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted December 27, 2022 Share Posted December 27, 2022 8 hours ago, GD4ELI said: This benefits all in NATO and it's working. It's not about defeating Russia, it's about defeating Putin and his cronies. Say that were true, how would Putin and his cronies be defeated? It is far from certain that continuing the conflict would eventually lead to Putin and his cronies being removed. And even if Putin was gone, that wouldnt mean that Russia would hand the Crimea and Donbas. But the stated aims of the US have been to weaken the US until the Ukraine is in a better position to negotiate. That's what is claimed anyway. Yet the longer the war carries on I think the harder it will be for either side to compromise. Benefiting NATO is not the same as benefiting Europe. NATO is essentially a United States club. Expansion and strengthening of NATO only strengthens the US ability to exert its power and influence whilst reducing Europe's ability to act independently in the future. But worse are the economic effects. Europe only becomes economically weaker from this. It's more expensive getting energy supplies from the US. But the Ukraine, Europe, and Russia have all lost much out of this and it will only get worse. And what good is strengthening NATO for Europe? Russia isn't likely to invade any other countries after the huge mistake it has made in Ukraine. Presuming that Putin is rational, as I don't think he is mad, he knows that the invasion of Ukraine was a massive miscalculation. But for Ukraine and Europe it is likely to be more death, more economic problems and more dependence on the US, and Russia will just get cosier with China and India which isn't in Europe's interest. I'd want the Crimea retuned to the Ukraine but the deaths and prospects for Europe aren't worth it, even if it was likely to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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