quilp Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 The terrain the Leopard is destined to operate in is very much the same terrain fought over in Russia and France during WW2. The mk2 Tiger, at 57+tons experienced great difficulty in soft, marshy ground, often being brought to a halt when it became sunk up to the sponson and had to be rescued, at times under fire. The lighter and later Panther at 45+tons, suffered the same fate. Both tanks were essentially too big. The various Leopard incarnations iirc, are around 68+tons so mostly solid roads only, given the winter weather prevailing in Ukraine at the moment. I can see it being logistically problematic, not just for the Leopard either. The Challenger 2 is 66+tons without added protection. What's a T72/T90 weigh - 40+tons? Did Zelenskiy really claim Ukraine needed 300 new battle tanks? What chance has he got getting hold of that many vehicles c/w experienced infantry and mechtec support? That's a big ask for the US and NATO. A bridge too far, perhaps. You'll be aware of this already, I'm sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 8 hours ago, quilp said: The terrain the Leopard is destined to operate in is very much the same terrain fought over in Russia and France during WW2. The mk2 Tiger, at 57+tons experienced great difficulty in soft, marshy ground, often being brought to a halt when it became sunk up to the sponson and had to be rescued, at times under fire. The lighter and later Panther at 45+tons, suffered the same fate. Both tanks were essentially too big. The various Leopard incarnations iirc, are around 68+tons so mostly solid roads only, given the winter weather prevailing in Ukraine at the moment. I can see it being logistically problematic, not just for the Leopard either. The Challenger 2 is 66+tons without added protection. What's a T72/T90 weigh - 40+tons? Did Zelenskiy really claim Ukraine needed 300 new battle tanks? What chance has he got getting hold of that many vehicles c/w experienced infantry and mechtec support? That's a big ask for the US and NATO. A bridge too far, perhaps. You'll be aware of this already, I'm sure. The Leopard is equipped with wider tracks as they have learned from their mistakes. A Challenger is seriously heavy metal. They need MBT's that match, or hopefully outmatch, the T90. Their current old Soviet stuff just can't cut it. So then they can take the fight to the enemy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quilp Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 6 hours ago, P.K. said: The Leopard is equipped with wider tracks as they have learned from their mistakes. Indeed, but it's still terrain-dependent and the ground pressure of the vehicle itself. A mathematician has worked it out. I was amazed... https://www.mathscinotes.com/2016/06/tank-track-ground-pressure-examples/ 6 hours ago, P.K. said: A Challenger is seriously heavy metal. Seriously heavy without additional side armour and other kit. 6 hours ago, P.K. said: They need MBT's that match, or hopefully outmatch, the T90. Their current old Soviet stuff just can't cut it. The T90's haven't faired so well in this theatre. Maybe it's battlefield inexperience but also drone guided artillery and ATGM's. They've been losing turrets just like the T72's and are just as susceptible to top-down munitions. There's not much difference between the two either, 125mm smooth bore cannon, top speed, targeting are very similar in operation. The only external difference is the T90's ERA. The autoloader on the T90 is probably quicker than the T72 but all that ammo is still stored unprotected on the carousel. Not wise. And what of the Armata? Plagued by mechanical and software targeting problems. One destroyed already as far as I can remember. 6 hours ago, P.K. said: So then they can take the fight to the enemy. Aren't Ukraine doing this already? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted January 22, 2023 Share Posted January 22, 2023 19 hours ago, quilp said: Indeed, but it's still terrain-dependent and the ground pressure of the vehicle itself. A mathematician has worked it out. I was amazed... https://www.mathscinotes.com/2016/06/tank-track-ground-pressure-examples/ Seriously heavy without additional side armour and other kit. The T90's haven't faired so well in this theatre. Maybe it's battlefield inexperience but also drone guided artillery and ATGM's. They've been losing turrets just like the T72's and are just as susceptible to top-down munitions. There's not much difference between the two either, 125mm smooth bore cannon, top speed, targeting are very similar in operation. The only external difference is the T90's ERA. The autoloader on the T90 is probably quicker than the T72 but all that ammo is still stored unprotected on the carousel. Not wise. And what of the Armata? Plagued by mechanical and software targeting problems. One destroyed already as far as I can remember. Aren't Ukraine doing this already? Working out the ground pressure is business as usual. FV 107 Scimitar operated in the Falklands because of it's ground pressure of just 0.36 kg per sq cm. I wonder how that calculation pans out compared to, say, the sole of a size nine DMS army boot...? It's part of the planning process. On the North German Plain ALL the bridges were graded as to what load they could carry so an MBT doesn't drop a vital crossing. Unless it's the enemy and you meant them to! It's also useful when you know, as in this case, the enemy's AP and AT mine capability. Apparently a T90 was destroyed by a Swedish AT4 manpad. A disposable spin-off from their Carl Gustav AT / AP system which has been around so long I trained on it! If it ain't broke... Such is the lethality of the modern battlefield, as the Russians have found out, you can realistically only attack in armour-heavy battlegroups. So they need to upgrade from their primitive Soviet-era tanks... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Phantom Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 On 1/21/2023 at 3:31 PM, quilp said: Indeed, but it's still terrain-dependent and the ground pressure of the vehicle itself. A mathematician has worked it out. I was amazed... https://www.mathscinotes.com/2016/06/tank-track-ground-pressure-examples/ Seriously heavy without additional side armour and other kit. The T90's haven't faired so well in this theatre. Maybe it's battlefield inexperience but also drone guided artillery and ATGM's. They've been losing turrets just like the T72's and are just as susceptible to top-down munitions. There's not much difference between the two either, 125mm smooth bore cannon, top speed, targeting are very similar in operation. The only external difference is the T90's ERA. The autoloader on the T90 is probably quicker than the T72 but all that ammo is still stored unprotected on the carousel. Not wise. And what of the Armata? Plagued by mechanical and software targeting problems. One destroyed already as far as I can remember. Aren't Ukraine doing this already? 22 hours ago, P.K. said: Working out the ground pressure is business as usual. FV 107 Scimitar operated in the Falklands because of it's ground pressure of just 0.36 kg per sq cm. I wonder how that calculation pans out compared to, say, the sole of a size nine DMS army boot...? It's part of the planning process. On the North German Plain ALL the bridges were graded as to what load they could carry so an MBT doesn't drop a vital crossing. Unless it's the enemy and you meant them to! It's also useful when you know, as in this case, the enemy's AP and AT mine capability. Apparently a T90 was destroyed by a Swedish AT4 manpad. A disposable spin-off from their Carl Gustav AT / AP system which has been around so long I trained on it! If it ain't broke... Such is the lethality of the modern battlefield, as the Russians have found out, you can realistically only attack in armour-heavy battlegroups. So they need to upgrade from their primitive Soviet-era tanks... Tracks are specifically designed for mud, sand and snow. There are plenty of tanks, APCs, mobile guns etc about with wheels and these are generally more maneuverable day to day, faster and require less maintenance. However, when it gets sticky, you'll want tracks. Generally as shown, the pressure underneath a track is actually less than that of a trooper's boot. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 Very poor show re supplying Leopard 2. Putin will be well pleased with cracks appearing in the NATO alliance... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Phantom Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 Lavrov is currently in South Africa buddying up with the Govt. They've also announced some SA, Russia, China war games imminently. What the ANC have done to that country beggars belief. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Phantom Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 (edited) The Orcs have just kicked the Estonian ambassador out from Moscow, because of 'Russophobia'. The Estonians are replying in kind. I was once told, that if you think everyone around you is a dick, then perhaps it might actually be you that is the dick. You'd think the Orcs would have considered this, if it weren't for basket case countries (South Africa), Axis of Evil (N Korea & Iran) or those hoping to take advantage/just rattle the west (China). With any luck this should make sea access to St Petersburg tricky. Apparently they've also banned beards in the Russian army. That's going to be awkward for Kadyrov and Co. Edited January 23, 2023 by The Phantom 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zarley Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 (edited) Do any of you follow Denys Davydov? He posts an update daily and I've found him to be pretty accurate. Thought some here might be interested, if you didn't already know about/follow him. Edited January 23, 2023 by Zarley Spells 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Phantom Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 13 minutes ago, Zarley said: Do any of you follow Denys Davydov? He posts an update daily and I've found him to be pretty accurate. Thought some here might be interested, if you didn't already know about/follow him. I watch Denys every night! There's quite a few British guys posting on Instagram from live on the ground that are worth subscribing too aswell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zarley Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 I watch him every night as well, usually with my fingers crossed that he has good news. Can you give the other guys' Insta names so I can check them out? Thanks. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Phantom Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 10 minutes ago, Zarley said: I watch him every night as well, usually with my fingers crossed that he has good news. Can you give the other guys' Insta names so I can check them out? Thanks. Assuming you've got Chris (swampy) from here? Trident Defence Initiative - training. r0ogie - founder of trident Call sign sign Leeds ua - fighter Cossack gundi - Aiden who was a POW at Mariuopol. I've got others too, but I'll try and remember to post when I see them in my feed. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Phantom Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 1 hour ago, The Phantom said: Assuming you've got Chris (swampy) from here? Trident Defence Initiative - training. r0ogie - founder of trident Call sign sign Leeds ua - fighter Cossack gundi - Aiden who was a POW at Mariuopol. I've got others too, but I'll try and remember to post when I see them in my feed. Still on the 'gram... Task force 31 - training Atlas news - on the ground reporting Battles and beers - general warfare coverage, but with a lot of UA stuff obviously at the moment. Nucking futs yuri - American fighter of .50 cal Humvee fame 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zarley Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 Thank you! I'll check them out for sure. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La_Dolce_Vita Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 On 1/20/2023 at 6:56 PM, A fool and his money..... said: I admire Germany for their moral courage. Tens of thousands of people have lost their lives in the Ukraine conflict, civilians and service men and women on both sides. I don't give a fuck what the political whys or wherefores are, nothing justifies this and the last thing any civilised, responsible country should be doing is providing either side with the means to increase the body count. Is it just moral courage or some thought to economic stability or a different political view (a Eurocentric view) than the Anglo-American one. I think it is difficult for France and Germany by pulled in two directions where they want to ensure stability and draw the line about further assistance so as not to embolden the Ukraine to think it can get everything back and then in the other way about not abandoning Ukraine. Though the line has to be drawn at some time. It's folly to keep ploughing weapons and resources into the Ukraine if this war carries on much longer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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