The Phantom Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 (edited) 26 minutes ago, La_Dolce_Vita said: Is it just moral courage or some thought to economic stability or a different political view (a Eurocentric view) than the Anglo-American one. I think it is difficult for France and Germany by pulled in two directions where they want to ensure stability and draw the line about further assistance so as not to embolden the Ukraine to think it can get everything back and then in the other way about not abandoning Ukraine. Though the line has to be drawn at some time. It's folly to keep ploughing weapons and resources into the Ukraine if this war carries on much longer. "Don't mention the war", but I'm going to... I think that part of the issue for Germany is that since the World War(s), there seems to be the sentiment that it can't do anything that is perceived as too fighty or militarily confrontational from the angle of national morality or memory of their past actions, if that makes sense? I'm sure it would be different if they were threatened directly, but they probably don't see this as a national threat at the moment. Was it Harry Enfield who had a German Tourist sketch who was constantly apologising for his nations actions in the war? I know that Japan had similar issues at one point, but that's probably changed due to the Chinese taunting. Edited January 24, 2023 by The Phantom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Passing Time Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 2 hours ago, La_Dolce_Vita said: Is it just moral courage or some thought to economic stability or a different political view (a Eurocentric view) than the Anglo-American one. I think it is difficult for France and Germany by pulled in two directions where they want to ensure stability and draw the line about further assistance so as not to embolden the Ukraine to think it can get everything back and then in the other way about not abandoning Ukraine. Though the line has to be drawn at some time. It's folly to keep ploughing weapons and resources into the Ukraine if this war carries on much longer. It would be folly not to support Ukraine with weapons. No weapons and that maniac Putin would waltz right through Ukraine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VikingRaider Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 1 hour ago, Passing Time said: It would be folly not to support Ukraine with weapons. No weapons and that maniac Putin would waltz right through Ukraine And then Moldova and then ... Where do you draw the line ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 1 hour ago, VikingRaider said: And then Moldova and then ... Where do you draw the line ? The border of NATO... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Passing Time Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 4 minutes ago, P.K. said: The border of NATO... by which time it is too late Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 8 hours ago, La_Dolce_Vita said: It's folly to keep ploughing weapons and resources into the Ukraine if this war carries on much longer. 5 hours ago, Passing Time said: It would be folly not to support Ukraine with weapons. No weapons and that maniac Putin would waltz right through Ukraine I see merit in both of these viewpoints. It's a tough one even to decide which of them has the moral high ground. Again, both have a reasonable claim. At the moment the West seems to be doing just enough for Ukraine to hold the line and for their people to keep on dying in the fight, but not enough to break the stalemate. A cynic might decide that this is exactly in NATO's interest for keeping Russia tied down in a war of attrition and degrading its capabilities whilst not having to fight. I see no end to this at all. Certainly not a good one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apple Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 ..and due to this war we are now 10 seconds closer to Doomsday. 😱 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chinahand Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.K. Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 Berlin plans to send German Leopard tanks to Ukraine, according to reports Germany will send its Leopard 2A6 battle tanks in conjunction with other countries such as Finland, Sweden and Poland, say reports citing government sources https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/24/berlin-plans-to-send-german-leopard-tanks-to-ukraine-according-to-reports It's in the Grauniad so it's probably true. Goodski... Challenger has probably the best armour in the business. Only one has been damaged in action and that was an unfortunate blue on blue where the turret hatch was left open. It also outguns most stuff so essentially Challenger can massacre the enemy from a position of safety which is what modern warfare is all about. So Ukraine is getting the tools to get the job done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apple Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 29 minutes ago, P.K. said: So Ukraine is getting the tools to get the job done. And apparently the US sending tanks as well. With the UK and Poland and other Nato countries it seems Ukraine may eventually get around 100 of the 300 tanks they have asked for. It will take some time for them to arrive, get supply lines sorted and determine strategy and leadership. But still no jet fighters. This will be a long confrontation and could very easily escalate by miscalculation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Phantom Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 With all of this talk of tanks, interestingly it seems that reviewing the Ukraine conflict tactics has given the US a kick developing its Light Tank (which they taking great pains in referring to as a 'Mobile Protected Firepower' platform instead of a Light Tank). Basically fighting a near peer with actual armour (contrary to most conflicts in the last 20 years) is showing there is a definite divergence between a Main Battle Tank (for killing other tanks) and something for real close support of the infantry. @Zarley this is another good channel for review of modern equipment and tactics. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GD4ELI Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 1 hour ago, The Phantom said: With all of this talk of tanks, interestingly it seems that reviewing the Ukraine conflict tactics has given the US a kick developing its Light Tank (which they taking great pains in referring to as a 'Mobile Protected Firepower' platform instead of a Light Tank). Basically fighting a near peer with actual armour (contrary to most conflicts in the last 20 years) is showing there is a definite divergence between a Main Battle Tank (for killing other tanks) and something for real close support of the infantry. @Zarley this is another good channel for review of modern equipment and tactics. Now is a good time to be working in defence, especially the software side which is very interesting and bleeding edge(no pun intended). Wish I were 20 years younger... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zarley Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 2 hours ago, The Phantom said: @Zarley this is another good channel for review of modern equipment and tactics. Thanks. Haven't had that channel pop up in my YouTube feed yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Phantom Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, GD4ELI said: Now is a good time to be working in defence, especially the software side which is very interesting and bleeding edge(no pun intended). Wish I were 20 years younger... Indeed. BAE shares are up about 20% since the invasion. Not many other industries are doing quite so well at the moment. 15 minutes ago, Zarley said: Thanks. Haven't had that channel pop up in my YouTube feed yet. Cappy is well informed and pretty insightful actually and is ex US Stryker Infantry, so is pretty good for commenting on armour and infantry interaction. Binkov's Battlegrounds on youtube is also good for strategy review. Edited January 25, 2023 by The Phantom 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Phantom Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 20 hours ago, P.K. said: The border of NATO... Which is kind of oxymoronic if you think about it. Ukraine wasn't part of NATO (yet). Russia doesn't want NATO countries on its doorstep. If Russia successfully invaded/annexed Ukraine, then they would have the NATO countries of Poland, Romania, Slovakia and Hungary on their doorstep. That's also ignoring the fact that due to the Ukraine invasion, Finland is now lookin to join too. It's like a self fulfilling prophecy. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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