Russia

[La_Dolce_Vita]

4 hours ago, GD4ELI said:

Might is right, yes?

Mind if I come round and steal your house and garden?

That's a strange misreading of my post.  How have you inferred this?

You're missing the point.  How much is this war going to cost the Ukraine,  Europe and the rest of the world in lives, general welfare, and in economic and environmental damage and a worsened geopolitical arena? Is another year's fighting acceptable if Russia somehow gives up? Two years? Five or ten? 

And making a fuss over the Ukraine (territorial) sovereignty is right, it's just a matter of how much it matters. For countries like Britain and the US, it more often doesn't matter much at all when we or the Americans deciding to embark on military action.

NATO isn't supporting Ukraine and to the extent that it is doing so for moral reasons.  Moral reasons may embolden but they do not direct things here.

[GD4ELI]

1 minute ago, La_Dolce_Vita said:

That's a strange misreading of my post.  How have you inferred this?

You're missing the point.  How much is this war going to cost the Ukraine,  Europe and the rest of the world in lives, general welfare, and in economic and environmental damage and a worsened geopolitical arena? Is another year's fighting acceptable if Russia somehow gives up? Two years? Five or ten? 

And making a fuss over the Ukraine (territorial) sovereignty is right, it's just a matter of how much it matters. For countries like Britain and the US, it more often doesn't matter much at all when we or the Americans deciding to embark on military action.

NATO isn't supporting Ukraine and to the extent that it is doing so for moral reasons.  Moral reasons may embolden but they do not direct things here.

NATO's charter prohibits support for non-NATO countries.

Again, I'll be round for your car next week. And your chickens.

[La_Dolce_Vita]

3 hours ago, P.K. said:

 

At the time of the 2014 invasion some 40% of the population of Crimea were Ukrainians and Crimean Tatars. They absolutely do not want to be Russian. I mean, would you move from a western-style democracy to the constrictive life of a Russian vassal state? Don't think so... Many have moved out and the young have joined the Ukrainian forces. They want their freedom back.

A lot of ethnic Russians in the Donbas don't want to be Russian either. Especially as young men are being taken off the streets, given minimal training and a five-shot bolt action Mosin-Nagant rifle developed in 1891, then sent to the front as cannon fodder. Your Russian zealots wanted you to be "properly" Russian so why are you complaining?

War is a nasty, dirty, miserable business and should always be a last resort. But when the likes of Putin invades then someone has to put him back in his box. Preferably six feet under...

That bit about putting Putin back in his box is a nice notion but it isn't why NATO is supporting the Ukraine.  It's something incidental. Same with Saddam Hussain. British people can justify to themselves that it was ok because it's good to get rid of these tyrants but that's not why the British were there and it isn't in keeping with the UN Charter. 

If countries went around getting rid of bad statesmen and malign regimes then plenty of US Presidents and UK Prime Ministers would have been in trouble for war crimes or because of the threat they pose to people in their own country and other countries.  Most not as bad as Saddam in personality but how are we evaluating these things? 

War is a nasty business and in some circumstances there is a imperative to fight back but that something nothing about how long you will fight and to what cost.  If a large part of Ukraine is devastated, is that worth it for the goal or worth it for the lives lost? Yes, it would be best to ask the population what price they want to pay.  That's hasn't happened. And it's the US and Britain principally pushing the Ukraine to continue whilst devaluing negotiations.  And then given the costs for the rest of the world, such as from Europe's population, much is ignored.

 

[La_Dolce_Vita]

16 minutes ago, GD4ELI said:

NATO's charter prohibits support for non-NATO countries.

Again, I'll be round for your car next week. And your chickens.

Yet it is supporting Ukraine. 

Do you think it is worth fighting for my chicken, car, house and garden if a couple of family members get killed in the crossfire? And in addition, the fighting means my neighbours end poorer, the whole neighbourhood struggles harder for food and water supplies, and everyone becomes more financially dependent on the richest fella in the community.   What if the whole neighbouring went up in flames with everyone dead? I don't think your analogy is a good one but I'm giving you suitable scenario to go along with it 

[P.K.]

39 minutes ago, La_Dolce_Vita said:

That bit about putting Putin back in his box is a nice notion but it isn't why NATO is supporting the Ukraine.  It's something incidental. Same with Saddam Hussain. British people can justify to themselves that it was ok because it's good to get rid of these tyrants but that's not why the British were there and it isn't in keeping with the UN Charter. 

If countries went around getting rid of bad statesmen and malign regimes then plenty of US Presidents and UK Prime Ministers would have been in trouble for war crimes or because of the threat they pose to people in their own country and other countries.  Most not as bad as Saddam in personality but how are we evaluating these things? 

War is a nasty business and in some circumstances there is a imperative to fight back but that something nothing about how long you will fight and to what cost.  If a large part of Ukraine is devastated, is that worth it for the goal or worth it for the lives lost? Yes, it would be best to ask the population what price they want to pay.  That's hasn't happened. And it's the US and Britain principally pushing the Ukraine to continue whilst devaluing negotiations.  And then given the costs for the rest of the world, such as from Europe's population, much is ignored.

It's simple.

If Putin isn't stopped here then Moldova will be next and so on.

Plus there is no way you need to ask the Ukrainians what price they will pay. There are no "Better Red than dead" sentiments in that country. They have seen the wanton destruction and killing that follows Russian subjugation and they know they need to fight to preserve their way of life.

Don't forget Putin tried to take Kiev thinking it would give him the entire country.

Fail...

[La_Dolce_Vita]

6 minutes ago, P.K. said:

It's simple.

If Putin isn't stopped here then Moldova will be next and so on.

Plus there is no way you need to ask the Ukrainians what price they will pay. There are no "Better Red than dead" sentiments in that country. They have seen the wanton destruction and killing that follows Russian subjugation and they know they need to fight to preserve their way of life.

Don't forget Putin tried to take Kiev thinking it would give him the entire country.

Fail...

I'm not sure I'd agree. It's not even certain where Russia would want to permanently occupy Ukraine, nevermind advance on to Moldova. Any occupation of the entirety of Ukraine will lead to neverending conflict against that occupation that will drain the life out of its economy. Moldova would worsen that.  

And then what's to say that the lessen hasn't been learned by Putin? The invasion was a terrible mistake for Russia given all that it has cost Russia.  Why does removal of Putin make that necessary to prevent occupation of all of the Ukraine and Moldova? 

No. I think you do need to ask the Ukrainian population. I think the need to be asked how much they're willing to sacrifice for the Donbas and Crimes.  How many lives and the devastation of their country.  How long are they willing to go on sacrificing? Though, of course, I am bearing in mind that what seems acceptable now might not be when people are picking themselves up years later and re-evaluate.

[Passing Time]

3 hours ago, woolley said:

You clearly know as much about Lord Haw Haw as you know about me. Precisely nothing.

Joyce was a Nazi committed to the German cause who broadcast terror to Britain from Luxembourg in WW2. I'm merely trying to put forward a sober view of the situation between the combatants. I'm not promoting Putin's war aims, far from it. But wishing for the moon and looking at reality from afar through rose tinted specs solves nothing. At some point there will have to be a settlement. It's just that by then many more innocents will have died.

Do you seriously believe that expelling the invader from all of Ukrainian territory pre 2014 is a realistic aim?

Apologies, the comment wasn't aimed at you.

[P.K.]

14 minutes ago, La_Dolce_Vita said:

No. I think you do need to ask the Ukrainian population. I think the need to be asked how much they're willing to sacrifice for the Donbas and Crimes.  How many lives and the devastation of their country.  How long are they willing to go on sacrificing? Though, of course, I am bearing in mind that what seems acceptable now might not be when people are picking themselves up years later and re-evaluate.

I wish I lived in your world....

It's obvious that Putin's Russia instills such fear, quite rightly, that they will fight until their entire country is devastated. And then fight some more.

With the right level of Western aid that won't happen...

[Max Power]

Putin is winning this war, he can put conscripts through the meat grinder, using up the weapons stockpiles of the USA and Britain for a good while yet, the Russian economy has grown by 0.3%, and he has a lot more friends, powerful friends, than we'd like to believe, or are told about. 

The USA are ultimately responsible for all of this. Their policy of regime change and subsequent toppling of Saddam made Putin sit up and think. That idiot Bush even stated in 2007 that they would destroy what they believe to be tyrannical leaders  and bring democracy to the world, whether they want it or not! This was the final straw for Putin. The USA is no longer the world's policeman!

As far as Ukraine is concerned, the primarily Russian east has suffered a type of cruel ethnic cleansing by government sponsored Nazi groups to wipe away any Russian loyalties, Putin needed few excuses to act! We may like cuddly old Zelensky, but Ukraine has been a mess for years. 

We believe everything we are fed, Russian claims may be made to sound wild and baseless in an effort to make Putin sound like a madman, we swallow it. The USA and Britain are seen as a Sodom and Gomorrah, poor moral standards, weak and without a moral compass, and I'm afraid they are right! We play into the hands of Putin, our mishandling of the Covid situation, destroying our economy, abysmal diplomacy and our willingness to be more concerned about not knowing what a woman is and rewriting Roald Dahl, portrays us as a shambles to to the outside world.     

Ref: Prof Peter Frankopan. Professor of Global History, Oxford University.  

 

Edited March 30, 2023 by Max Power

[Zarley]

20 hours ago, woolley said:

...and there's the coming US presidential election which could yet be a wildcard.

Trump says if he's elected in 2024 he will end the war, through negotiations, in 24 hours.

 

 

Just like he got Mexico to pay for the wall. 

[GD4ELI]

2 minutes ago, Max Power said:

Putin is winning this war, he can put conscripts through the meat grinder, using up the weapons stockpiles of the USA and Britain for a good while yet, the Russian economy has grown by 0.3%, and he has a lot more friends, powerful friends, than we'd like to believe, or are told about. 

The USA are ultimately responsible for all of this. Their policy of regime change and subsequent toppling of Saddam made Putin sit up and think. That idiot Bush even stated in 2007 that they would destroy what they believe to be tyrannical leaders  and bring democracy to the world, whether they want it or not! This was the final straw for Putin. The USA is no longer the world's policeman!

As far as Ukraine is concerned, the primarily Russian east has suffered a type of cruel ethnic cleansing by government sponsored Nazi groups to wipe away any Russian loyalties, Putin needed few excuses to act! We may like cuddly old Zelensky, but Ukraine has been a mess for years. 

We believe everything we are fed, Russian claims may be made to sound wild and baseless in an effort to make Putin sound like a madman, we swallow it. The USA and Britain are seen as a Sodom and Gomorrah, poor moral standards, weak and without a moral compass, and I'm afraid they are right! We play into the hands of Putin, our mishandling of the Covid situation, destroying our economy, abysmal diplomacy and our willingness to be more concerned about not knowing what a woman is and rewriting Roald Dahl, portrays us as a shambles to to the outside world.      

 

As Losses Mount, Russia Is Reactivating Soviet-Era T-54 Tanks. That Says So Much.

[Max Power]

5 minutes ago, GD4ELI said:

As Losses Mount, Russia Is Reactivating Soviet-Era T-54 Tanks. That Says So Much.

And we in the west are starving and eating insects to pay for the arms we are sending to Ukraine, bullshit on both sides. 

 

[Passing Time]

1 hour ago, Max Power said:

And we in the west are starving and eating insects to pay for the arms we are sending to Ukraine, bullshit on both sides. 

 

"we" are not...

[GD4ELI]

1 hour ago, Max Power said:

And we in the west are starving and eating insects to pay for the arms we are sending to Ukraine, bullshit on both sides. 

Really - now that's total BS. Remember the sacrifices in WWII made by countries not directly affected. Sounds like you just don't care about anyone other than yourself.

[Max Power]

1 hour ago, GD4ELI said:

Really - now that's total BS. Remember the sacrifices in WWII made by countries not directly affected. Sounds like you just don't care about anyone other than yourself.

Of course it's BS, there's BS on all sides. What do the sacrifices made by countries not directly involved have to do with anything I have said?

And how do you come to that conclusion from me reporting what Russian media are telling their people about food shortages in the west, are you ok?

Edited March 29, 2023 by Max Power