Russia

[P.K.]

I think it's ludicrous for the reasons I have stated.

Especially when they were being invaded they didn't blow it up as a defensive measure so they lost ground as a consequence...  

[woolley]

1 minute ago, P.K. said:

I think it's ludicrous for the reasons I have stated.

Especially when they were being invaded they didn't blow it up as a defensive measure so they lost ground as a consequence...  

That was then, this is now. Priorities and strategies change and evolve. Playing devil's advocate (and not stating it as a fact!), they could see not doing it in the first place as an opportunity lost in the initial shock of invasion (but of course other scenarios are available, one of which will be fact whether we discover it in due course or not).

[P.K.]

You are correct that priorities and strategies change and evolve.

What is beyond all doubt is that after losing tens of thousands of troops in the assault on Bakhmut the Russian strategy is now all about a defensive line and digging in to hold it against a Ukrainian assault. Frankly they just no longer have the combat power to do much else.

Breaching the dam was a defensive act. Now it doesn't take an Einstein to figure it out...

 

[code99]

12 hours ago, P.K. said:

Now it doesn't take an Einstein to figure it out...

 

I agree. Expressing one’s opinion, something everyone is entitled to do, is completely different kettle of fish to subtly peddling Russian propaganda and disinformation. The West is at war with Putin, not just on the battlefields of Ukraine, but also on Internet.  

Edited June 11, 2023 by code99

[woolley]

13 hours ago, code99 said:

I agree. Expressing one’s opinion, something everyone is entitled to do, is completely different kettle of fish to subtly peddling Russian propaganda and disinformation. The West is at war with Putin, not just on the battlefields of Ukraine, but also on Internet.  

Aye. So subtle as to be entirely in your imagination.

[Mr. Sausages]

Not entirely. It’s in mine too.

[The Phantom]

Another dam... 

https://kyivindependent.com/official-russians-blew-up-dam-in-donetsk-oblast-causing-flooding-on-both-banks-of-river/

[woolley]

8 hours ago, Mr. Sausages said:

Not entirely. It’s in mine too.

Of course it is. I'd be disappointed if it were otherwise because you're cut from the same cloth. No shortage of closed minds here.

[manxman1980]

2 hours ago, woolley said:

Of course it is. I'd be disappointed if it were otherwise because you're cut from the same cloth. No shortage of closed minds here.

The Russians were in control of the Dam at the time it was destroyed.  Are you seriously suggesting that a Ukraine force managed to get to the dam, plant explosives and detonate it without being spotted?  I also question whether there is any real tactical benefit for Ukraine to destroy the dam.

I do think it is plausible that Ukraine may have been behind the destruction of Nord Stream 2 as that actually makes some sense.

Closed minds are never a good thing but there is plenty of evidence that some people have such open minds that their brain has fallen out.

[P.K.]

2 hours ago, woolley said:

Of course it is. I'd be disappointed if it were otherwise because you're cut from the same cloth. No shortage of closed minds here.

Says the Brexiteer....

[The Phantom]

33 minutes ago, manxman1980 said:

The Russians were in control of the Dam at the time it was destroyed.  Are you seriously suggesting that a Ukraine force managed to get to the dam, plant explosives and detonate it without being spotted?  I also question whether there is any real tactical benefit for Ukraine to destroy the dam.

I do think it is plausible that Ukraine may have been behind the destruction of Nord Stream 2 as that actually makes some sense.

Closed minds are never a good thing but there is plenty of evidence that some people have such open minds that their brain has fallen out.

Ukraine warned last year that the Russians had mined the dam.  Reports are also that the explosion was deep in the generator rooms/structure, so would have been virtually impossible for Ukraine to access.  It wasn't a bomb planted in the reservoir itself. 

Agreed that Nordstream was possibly Ukraine. 

Ukraine have too much to lose and little to anything to gain from blowing the dam. 

[HiVibes]

54 minutes ago, The Phantom said:

Ukraine have too much to lose and little to anything to gain from blowing the dam. 

The Russians blew the dam in WW2, so it was always on the cards they would blow it again. Ukraine would benefit if were able to choose the timing oi the inevitable catastrophe, it's pretty bleak stuff but such is the history of the region.

[woolley]

2 hours ago, manxman1980 said:

The Russians were in control of the Dam at the time it was destroyed.  Are you seriously suggesting that a Ukraine force managed to get to the dam, plant explosives and detonate it without being spotted?  I also question whether there is any real tactical benefit for Ukraine to destroy the dam.

I do think it is plausible that Ukraine may have been behind the destruction of Nord Stream 2 as that actually makes some sense.

Closed minds are never a good thing but there is plenty of evidence that some people have such open minds that their brain has fallen out.

I don't think you can accuse someone of having a screw loose for wishing to discuss other possibilities than the one everybody here appears to have accepted without question. To do so is the definition of closed minds, and that is what I have encountered as usual. It's nothing new around here, and it's one of the reasons I don't post much now.

You all appear not to recognise that I have stated repeatedly that the Russians are the most likely to have done this, and as time goes by the full rationale for them doing so may or may not be revealed. For now it remains inconclusive, so what is so offensive about examining it? To do so represents no support for Russia and their cause of annexing Ukraine. I hope fervently that they fail, but I am not as optimistic as others seem to be. It's going to be long, messy and dangerous to the wider world.

Like you, I think it's plausible that Ukraine, or even a third party, might have damaged the Nord Stream 2 pipeline. It's very hard to believe the prevailing narrative that it was the Russians. What would they have to gain by destroying their own infrastructure built to sell their gas? It makes no sense. Who would have most to gain by making sure it never comes on stream? Perhaps those who have stepped in to fill the big gap in the European oil market?

Am I seriously suggesting that a Ukraine force managed to get to the dam, plant explosives and detonate it without being spotted? I'm not pushing the theory as fact, but neither am I discounting the possibility. It's the blur of war. Anything is possible. Has it not been noted repeatedly that many of the Russians in the field are not the sharpest or most motivated? The Kerch Bridge was was under Russian control at the time it was attacked and put out of action. Did the Russians do that too? Is there any military tactical advantage for either side in breaching the dam? Maybe we will have a better idea in due course as the battle plays out.

It's interesting that one can be accused of supporting Russia and peddling propaganda merely by attempting to delve into events on the ground. If anyone still doesn't get it, I'll say for the 4th time that I want to see Russia expelled from Ukraine and their "special military operation" fail spectacularly.

Edited June 12, 2023 by woolley

[woolley]

2 hours ago, P.K. said:

Says the Brexiteer....

And?

My exchange with some folk these past couple of pages is a succinct analogy for the way they look at everything - Brexit included - through one eye, and that's half shut.

[woolley]

1 hour ago, The Phantom said:

Ukraine warned last year that the Russians had mined the dam.  Reports are also that the explosion was deep in the generator rooms/structure, so would have been virtually impossible for Ukraine to access.  It wasn't a bomb planted in the reservoir itself. 

Agreed that Nordstream was possibly Ukraine. 

Ukraine have too much to lose and little to anything to gain from blowing the dam. 

Yes. It's highly likely it was the Russians, but not yet certain. Nordstream could possibly be Ukraine but my hunch would be a third party. Or Ukraine with the connivance and assistance of a third party.