Sex education and religion

[manxman1980]

6 minutes ago, hissingsid said:

I said a classroom of 11 year olds is neither the place nor the time to discuss gender issues especially without parents knowledge.

So where and when is it appropriate? 

[Gladys]

Just now, hissingsid said:

I have never said homosexuality is a choice or just being lazy I think that is a disgusting allegation to make.    I said a classroom of 11 year olds is neither the place nor the time to discuss gender issues especially without parents knowledge.

No, you dismissed transgender people as not having a reasonable message to deliver.  They have no place in the schoolroom.

Perhaps they do, even for 11 year olds to explain in an age appropriate way, that there are many different family constructs.  That may help any children there who may have a transgender parent or family member.  What matters is that the message is maturely and sensitively presented.  Society is growing to  accept different genders, or are you preferring that 'these people' are kept out?  Much the same as homosexuality was kept out.  It doesn't stop people being homosexual or transgender, just stops people accepting them.

TBH I couldn't give a shit what anyone's sexual/gender position is, their sexuality is irrelevant, I would rather see the person.

[Mr Snaefell]

11 minutes ago, hissingsid said:

I have never said homosexuality is a choice or just being lazy I think that is a disgusting allegation to make.    I said a classroom of 11 year olds is neither the place nor the time to discuss gender issues especially without parents knowledge.

1. "disgusting allegation" Nobody said that. The fact that you immediately went there is extremely telling.

2. Do you not think that there might be a scared/lonely/depressed child in that room who is confused and struggling with their own gender that is silently screaming inside "finally! we can discuss this openly"

[Roger Mexico]

8 hours ago, manxman1980 said:

16+ is too late to deliver sex education classes in my view especially when you consider that 16 is the age of consent and that most children that age will have undoubtedly have had access to an internet enabled device and have access to porn.

It really is difficult to know exactly when and what content is appropriate to deliver to children but we have to acknowledge that we live in a society which right up until the "me too" movement would be happy to go with the statement that "sex sells".

There was a YouGov poll published this week, which was headlined that "One in five admit to first having sex before their 16th birthday".  This actually wasn't quite true as that was of the 63% who gave an age, and 6% said "I have not lost my virginity"[1] while a  whole 22% replied "Prefer not to say" and another 10% answered "Don’t know/can’t recall".  But another 17% did so when 16, so it may be that people were unwilling to admit breaking the law and in any case suggests leaving it till 16 may be too late.

[1]  This was actually as high as 25% for those aged 18-29, which might add to evidence that the current young are less likely to get involved, though of the 49% who gave an answer 20% were under 16 and another 52% had lost it between 16 and 18.

[The Voice of Reason]

1 hour ago, hissingsid said:

I have never said homosexuality is a choice or just being lazy I think that is a disgusting allegation to make.    I said a classroom of 11 year olds is neither the place nor the time to discuss gender issues especially without parents knowledge.

You’re right. I’m a bit surprised at Gladys making that comment.

[Gladys]

4 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

You’re right. I’m a bit surprised at Gladys making that comment.

Read my post properly. There was no allegation, just pointing out that there are still people who think homosexuality is a choice or a lazy option.  You would hope we have moved on from that (not so sure) but we are still hitting the same block where gender issues come into play.  

I doubt that many transgender people go down that route without a great deal of heartache and soul searching, not to mention guilt (because they have not lived up to expectations) and desperation. I doubt it is a choice.

To read Hissing Sid's post that they have no place in the schoolroom  just took me back to the old view of homosexuality, like children could be persuaded to determine their sexuality. They may be persuaded to understand their sexuality,  but that is not the same thing at all. 

 

[AcousticallyChallenged]

3 hours ago, hissingsid said:

I have never said homosexuality is a choice or just being lazy I think that is a disgusting allegation to make.    I said a classroom of 11 year olds is neither the place nor the time to discuss gender issues especially without parents knowledge.

What about for the kids who are struggling with the feelings of being transgender, but they don’t know what’s wrong with them? They simply know something is deeply wrong. 

They know they’re different, but they don’t have the language or perspective to put that into words.

A mention that these people do exist is immensely helpful to the children in that situation. But yet, it won’t turn a non transgender kid trans.

Gender incongruence, as it is medically termed, is no more catching than homosexuality or anything else.

Kids aren’t perplexed by these matters, they will accept things very matter of factly from their parents and their schools.

But, there are some who see it as some form of culture war, or affront on their deity. And suddenly, “it isn’t like it was in my day”. 

[AcousticallyChallenged]

7 hours ago, TheTeapot said:

Or you could argue that some parents are aware of their responsibilities, are paying attention to their childrens development and are genuinely concerned at whatever it is that's going on in our secondary schools, not just whatever this latest turns out to be.

Sex education should obviously be provided by school, by proper educators. They should do a proper job of it, its important. Parents should know what's in the lessons, fully. And who!! Its what kind though, as well as when. I don't think anyone would be objecting to teaching about reproduction, but sex as part of your lifestyle is a completely different thing. I am still surprised that year 7 kids would be involved in that type of class, or that people think they should. 

I wonder if my resistance to the inevitable growing up that's coming is cos I can remember being a teenager and know what I was like.

You're right though, there aren't easy answers. 

The sex as a lifestyle thing aspect in everything I’ve seen is targeted at >16 year olds. Who, the odds are, may well be getting involved in those situations.

The big focus with younger secondary kids is the importance of consent, what that means if someone tries to do something you don’t want to, and that you are responsible for what you do with others.

There’s always the “use a condom” talk, and the “even if you’re a boy and like boys” isn’t a bad thing to mention at that age. But that’s all you really need to add to it. 

I’d also certainly not want to be a teenager these days, everything is so exposed online, and you never have the opportunity to do stupid teenage things without it following you one way or another.

Being a teenager at the best of times is hard, you’re going through so much growing, upheaval and your brain is being pumped full of hormones, without having gotten decision making quite right. 

[Chie]

6 hours ago, hissingsid said:

Transgender, Drag Queen, whatever, neither have a part to play in a school.   What was a contractor doing in a classroom when a sex lesson was taking place ?   If he was not in the classroom how does he know what was going on ?    Bullshit and cover up story.

I never said they were in the classroom you utter bellend, I said working in the school.

Also, there are trans kids in schools you know? In fact, and I don't want to scare the pants off you here, there are in fact, ENTIRE LGBTQIA+ clubs also 👻. Try not to let your head spin too many times over that.

[Chie]

6 hours ago, Mr Snaefell said:

So a fellow human being is not allowed to discuss and explain their life story? That may help future generations?

I bet their wall porn is Jordan Peterson looking angrily at some green hair.

Edited March 5, 2023 by Chie

[Hoops]

Where's the balance in discussing Trans people, gender politics etc at school, though? It's such an emotive subject, I can have empathy for Chie, having body dysphoria to a degree that you want to change your sex, it's impossible to imagine how that feels. But then the 'Tavistock scandal', if you will, and the make up of kids going down the trans route, some, what, 35% of referrals claimed to 'present with moderate to severe autistic traits'. Kids who will struggle, feeling isolated, different, looking for identity, what have you. One of my kids is on the autistic spectrum, I've seen how hard things can be for them. 

To deny that trans people exist and have the same rights as every other human is plainly wrong, I'm clearly gender critical, but this isn't the time and place for that argument. But, to a degree, it feels to me, that some elements of the mainstream entertainment industry are going beyond giving trans people a voice and actively 'promoting' trans artists - explain Sam Smith otherwise! So how do you get the balance between explanation and promotion, at a time in their lives when our kids are so open - and vulnerable - to new ideas? 

I imagine this is the crux of the issue for many parents, like myself. Loads of kids go through phases, I'm not so old I can't remember the urge to be different, to rebel, to shock. I ask again, how do we ensure a balance? If Mermaids charity came in to talk to my kids, I would not be happy.

I'm not looking to re-hash the discussions I've had with Chie, Ac etc on this forum, I'm trying to explain the concerns of parents.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[The Voice of Reason]

2 hours ago, Hoops said:

To deny that trans people exist and have the same rights as every other human is plainly wrong, I'm clearly gender critical, but this isn't the time and place for that argument. But, to a degree, it feels to me, that some elements of the mainstream entertainment industry are going beyond giving trans people a voice and actively 'promoting' trans artists - explain Sam Smith otherwise! So how do you get the balance between explanation and promotion, at a time in their lives when our kids are so open - and vulnerable - to new ideas? 

 

 

Excellent point. The entertainment has a huge influence on the younger generation. Think for example clothing styles adopted by those following a music genre. Denim or leather jackets for heavy metal followers, ripped clothes for punks etc.

I am not suggesting for one moment that the likes of Sam Smith and his promoters will lead kids to declare themselves transsexuals, when they had never previously heard the term.

It may lead to more tolerance, but it may also give the impression that transsexualism is more prevalent than it is and lead to the transsexual cause being adopted as a modern day act of rebellion. ( “Something to shock” as kids have always liked to do)

[AcousticallyChallenged]

2 hours ago, Hoops said:

Where's the balance in discussing Trans people, gender politics etc at school, though? It's such an emotive subject, I can have empathy for Chie, having body dysphoria to a degree that you want to change your sex, it's impossible to imagine how that feels. But then the 'Tavistock scandal', if you will, and the make up of kids going down the trans route, some, what, 35% of referrals claimed to 'present with moderate to severe autistic traits'. Kids who will struggle, feeling isolated, different, looking for identity, what have you. One of my kids is on the autistic spectrum, I've seen how hard things can be for them. 

So, the autism point is an interesting one.

There absolutely is an overlap between people assigned female at birth, autism and gender dysphoria. Polycystic ovary syndrome (PCOS) also has a link to it too. Note, a symptom of that can be increased testosterone production. 

There is a claimed link between testosterone in the womb, and autism. There is also a suggested link between PCOS and autism. 

Research also shows that there are links between brain structure and gender identity. Your brain structure as a transgender person diverges from your birth sex.

There is suggestion that these testosterone factors do play a role in it.

However, the net result is that brain and body don’t line up. So, these people, regardless of other conditions, are experiencing the misery of gender dysphoria. 

So, when you contextualise it, is it a scandal, or is it a sign that there’s likely a comorbidity? 

[AcousticallyChallenged]

2 hours ago, Hoops said:

I imagine this is the crux of the issue for many parents, like myself. Loads of kids go through phases, I'm not so old I can't remember the urge to be different, to rebel, to shock. I ask again, how do we ensure a balance? If Mermaids charity came in to talk to my kids, I would not be happy.

I can understand why there’s this perceived risk. 

But, if sexuality isn’t contagious, why would gender identity be?

[manxman1980]

@Hoops @The Voice of Reason

Sam Smith is hardly the first artist to venture into this territory though.

David Bowie/Ziggy Stardust? Eddie Izzard? 

Can we stop pretending that this is a recent thing?