La Colombe Posted June 20, 2023 Share Posted June 20, 2023 4 minutes ago, AcousticallyChallenged said: Some like both but only for a quick rummage. The reduction of sensuality to an unkempt drawer. And they say romance is dead. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ringy Rose Posted June 20, 2023 Share Posted June 20, 2023 (edited) 10 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said: But the emergence of this aggressive trans lobby is problematic for a lot. I don’t see much “aggressiveness” from the trans community, but I do see a lot of vitriol from the anti-trans lobby. What “aggressiveness” there is tends to be more about trans people standing up for themselves in the face of horrible abuse. As always, bullies who are stood up to will try and reverse victim and offender. It’s also not new. The T has always been in LGBT. The seismic moment in the gay liberation movement- Stonewall- was from the police deliberately targeting men dressed as women in a gay bar. Rights for gay people only came about because of the T in LGBT, and because the whole community stood together. Gay anti-trans people would do very well to remember that. Edited June 20, 2023 by Ringy Rose Added a T just for the poster below 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La Colombe Posted June 20, 2023 Share Posted June 20, 2023 8 minutes ago, Ringy Rose said: Rights for gay people only came about because of the T in LGB, There is no T in LGB. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted June 20, 2023 Share Posted June 20, 2023 18 minutes ago, Ringy Rose said: I don’t see much “aggressiveness” from the trans community, but I do see a lot of vitriol from the anti-trans lobby. What “aggressiveness” there is tends to be more about trans people standing up for themselves in the face of horrible abuse. As always, bullies who are stood up to will try and reverse victim and offender. It’s also not new. The T has always been in LGBT. The seismic moment in the gay liberation movement- Stonewall- was from the police deliberately targeting men dressed as women in a gay bar. Rights for gay people only came about because of the T in LGB, and because the whole community stood together. Gay anti-trans people would do very well to remember that. I don’t know. If I were gay I might be quite annoyed that the trans community is catching a ride on the coat tails of hard won rights. The addition of T to LGB is only fairly recent. In the 70s for example gay rights campaigners, Tatchell, Tom Robinson etc were never seen in traditional feminine attire. They are two different causes with the slimmest of connection and you could make the case that the trans lobby is muddying the waters for the gay community and alienating some that support that community. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AcousticallyChallenged Posted June 20, 2023 Share Posted June 20, 2023 3 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said: I don’t know. If I were gay I might be quite annoyed that the trans community is catching a ride on the coat tails of hard won rights. I wouldn’t. I would be glad that what I had endured for those rights could also better the lives of others. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AcousticallyChallenged Posted June 20, 2023 Share Posted June 20, 2023 42 minutes ago, La Colombe said: The reduction of sensuality to an unkempt drawer. And they say romance is dead. If you teach bonobos that they can trade coins for grapes, a rudimentary form of currency really, the next stage is that the female monkeys turn to prostitution. They’ll collect the extra coin and go to get their two grapes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Tatlock Posted June 20, 2023 Share Posted June 20, 2023 7 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said: I don’t know. If I were gay I might be quite annoyed that the trans community is catching a ride on the coat tails of hard won rights. Goes both ways...the argument I mean. 😊 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted June 20, 2023 Share Posted June 20, 2023 31 minutes ago, Ringy Rose said: I don’t see much “aggressiveness” from the trans community, but I do see a lot of vitriol from the anti-trans lobby. What “aggressiveness” there is tends to be more about trans people standing up for themselves in the face of horrible abuse. As always, bullies who are stood up to will try and reverse victim and offender. I generally agree with this statement. There seems to be an awful lot of anti-trans propaganda which is playing to the fears of women in particular. 31 minutes ago, Ringy Rose said: It’s also not new. The T has always been in LGBT. The seismic moment in the gay liberation movement- Stonewall- was from the police deliberately targeting men dressed as women in a gay bar. Rights for gay people only came about because of the T in LGB, and because the whole community stood together. Gay anti-trans people would do very well to remember that. I have some Lesbian friends and they are very concerned about trans-men. They are finding that they are being targeted because they do not want a relationship with a transgender man and are therefore being accused of being anti-trans. The sensible answer would seem to be to allow people the choice of who they have a relationship with but this is one where there does seem to be some aggression from transgender males. Apologies if I have got the terminology mixed up but I am still very much learning about this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albert Tatlock Posted June 20, 2023 Share Posted June 20, 2023 12 minutes ago, AcousticallyChallenged said: If you teach bonobos that they can trade coins for grapes, a rudimentary form of currency really, the next stage is that the female monkeys turn to prostitution. They’ll collect the extra coin and go to get their two grapes. Then, no doubt,the bonobos will likely leave 2 coins betting they will get a shag. Prostitution and gambling...an evolutionary process 😀 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ringy Rose Posted June 20, 2023 Share Posted June 20, 2023 (edited) 28 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said: don’t know. If I were gay I might be quite annoyed that the trans community is catching a ride on the coat tails of hard won rights. The addition of T to LGB is only fairly recent. Eh? Did you not read anything I wrote? The big seismic event in gay rights, certainly in America, was Stonewall. So important, in fact, that the gay rights pressure group Stonewall named themselves after it. Stonewall was a response to the targeted attacks by the police on men dressed as women. Read about what happened at the Stonewall Inn. You mention Peter Tatchell, read up on what he says about trans rights. 17 minutes ago, manxman1980 said: I have some Lesbian friends and they are very concerned about trans-men. They are finding that they are being targeted because they do not want a relationship with a transgender man and are therefore being accused of being anti-trans I suppose there are two parts to this. The first one being that attacking someone for not wanting a relationship with you is not right. The second being why are your friends wanting to publicly announce their preference anyway? It seems a very odd thing to do unless one is making a political point. Edited June 20, 2023 by Ringy Rose Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ringy Rose Posted June 20, 2023 Share Posted June 20, 2023 18 minutes ago, manxman1980 said: There seems to be an awful lot of anti-trans propaganda which is playing to the fears of women in particular. There is. As we’ve seen with the arguments about the prisoners in Scotland. My view is you can respect someone’s gender whilst managing the risk that person presents. A sex offender decides they’re trans? Fine, they can be in the prison of the sex they say they are. But as a sex offender they’re a big risk to all the other inmates, so leave them in solitary to manage that risk. The difficult one to manage is elite sport. But I love the way people talk about elite sport as though the world will collapse if elite sport is “unfair”, and as though elite sport is perfectly fair now. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted June 20, 2023 Share Posted June 20, 2023 Some interesting stuff in here https://www.jonnybest.co.uk/whats-gone-wrong-with-stonewall-1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted June 20, 2023 Share Posted June 20, 2023 This, basically. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jun/18/there-is-so-much-more-for-us-to-worry-about-than-men-masquerading-as-women-to-access-single-sex-spaces 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AcousticallyChallenged Posted June 20, 2023 Share Posted June 20, 2023 25 minutes ago, manxman1980 said: I have some Lesbian friends and they are very concerned about trans-men. They are finding that they are being targeted because they do not want a relationship with a transgender man and are therefore being accused of being anti-trans They sound like shitty people, the trans men applying pressure that is. It’s no different from a cis man telling a lesbian to “just try it, you’ll love it”. Not sleeping with a trans man because you’re an lesbian isn’t transphobic. If anything, it’s recognising their gender identity properly. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted June 20, 2023 Share Posted June 20, 2023 22 minutes ago, Ringy Rose said: I suppose there are two parts to this. The first one being that attacking someone for not wanting a relationship with you is not right. The second being why are your friends wanting to publicly announce their preference anyway? It seems a very odd thing to do unless one is making a political point. The "public announcements" vary. One person is very vocal about it but she holds strong political views as well and is therefore more open to sharing her views. The rest open up amongst friends about what they have experienced when they have been on nights out or using dating apps. In most cases I think they are also struggling with how to accept trans men whilst also staying safe and not being accused of being anti-trans. 16 minutes ago, Ringy Rose said: The difficult one to manage is elite sport. But I love the way people talk about elite sport as though the world will collapse if elite sport is “unfair”, and as though elite sport is perfectly fair now. There is an easy solution to elite sport (and sport in general) and that is to create a separate category for trans. You can also still have open classes where anybody can enter and compete directly. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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