Happier diner Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 12 minutes ago, Andy Onchan said: Not sure I follow the logic on this. If those people were unable to be prosecuted due to a screw up with process/procedure how can they be cautioned? Shirley there has to be a reasonable chance of conviction with due procedure before deciding to issue a caution? Without that reasonable chance then a caution falls away? I always thought accepting a caution constituted an admission of guilt. Its an assumption I have made so I am happy to stand corrected. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ringy Rose Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 (edited) 40 minutes ago, Andy Onchan said: Not sure I follow the logic on this. If those people were unable to be prosecuted due to a screw up with process/procedure how can they be cautioned? Shirley there has to be a reasonable chance of conviction with due procedure before deciding to issue a caution? Without that reasonable chance then a caution falls away? I think the screw up was that a police officer exercised their discretion to offer a caution to these people rather than going for prosecution. The police are implying they didn’t run it past a senior first. Back before social media the marshals would have just had a robust word with them and only called the police if they didn’t comply. But now everyone sticks everything on Facebook. Storm in a teacup. Edited June 21, 2023 by Ringy Rose 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Onchan Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 1 hour ago, Ringy Rose said: I think the screw up was that a police officer exercised their discretion to offer a caution to these people rather than going for prosecution. The police are implying they didn’t run it past a senior first. Back before social media the marshals would have just had a robust word with them and only called the police if they didn’t comply. But now everyone sticks everything on Facebook. Storm in a teacup. I'm probably wrong but in my mind I'm not sure that the caution would be legal without a case and intent to prosecute. If there was no case then there should be no caution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Onchan Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 1 hour ago, Happier diner said: I always thought accepting a caution constituted an admission of guilt. Its an assumption I have made so I am happy to stand corrected. That was my understanding as well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Mexico Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 2 hours ago, Ringy Rose said: I think the screw up was that a police officer exercised their discretion to offer a caution to these people rather than going for prosecution. The police are implying they didn’t run it past a senior first. That's what they are implying, but I'm not sure it's true. After all these people weren't dealt with on the spot, they had to be found, and by that time you would imagine that a senior officer would be involve, given that public announcements looking for information had been made. And in any case I think a caution has to be administered at a police station, you don't just wave a yellow card at them in the street or whatever. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thommo2010 Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 1 hour ago, Andy Onchan said: I'm probably wrong but in my mind I'm not sure that the caution would be legal without a case and intent to prosecute. If there was no case then there should be no caution. A caution is simply a disposal method, in general there are 3 outcomes no further action, Caution, Charged to appear at court. A caution can only be given if the person admits to the offence. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Onchan Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 11 minutes ago, thommo2010 said: A caution is simply a disposal method, in general there are 3 outcomes no further action, Caution, Charged to appear at court. A caution can only be given if the person admits to the offence. I understand the disposal issue. The question is, was an official case raised for that caution to be issued? If there was then why weren't they Charged to Appear, especially since Plod have been banging on about how they would prosecute, no excuses?? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thommo2010 Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 49 minutes ago, Andy Onchan said: I understand the disposal issue. The question is, was an official case raised for that caution to be issued? If there was then why weren't they Charged to Appear, especially since Plod have been banging on about how they would prosecute, no excuses?? What do you mean by an official case raised? Raised to who? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Onchan Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 31 minutes ago, thommo2010 said: What do you mean by an official case raised? Raised to who? Official case number or reference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thommo2010 Posted June 21, 2023 Share Posted June 21, 2023 13 minutes ago, Andy Onchan said: Official case number or reference. there will be a case number Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CallMeCurious Posted June 22, 2023 Share Posted June 22, 2023 We all know plod will always be more lenient on competitors/visitors to try and protect the event and tourism. Even if it's an unwritten rule. After all with a Manx reg they know you'll have to show and face the music. Same with healthcare effectively switched over to a free service for visitors twice a year while the locals watch the waiting lists get longer still. These are the costs of living in the home of the world capital of road racing. Pretty soon there'll be no sidecars, no electric bikes and drop to one event a year not long after. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted June 22, 2023 Share Posted June 22, 2023 The whole route from offence to disposal is a series of discretionary gateways. offence occurs or is reported or detected. Police May or May not take any action at all. They may record it. They may decide to investigate. If they identify the offender they may have a chat and explain wrong doing. They may arrest and interview. After interview there may be a defence, or no offence disclosed. Then they may decide No further action, caution, send on a diversionary scheme, summons or charge. Once in court the prosecutor may agree to withdraw, caution or a bind over, or the court may impose an absolute or conditional discharge, a fine, community service, probation, suspended or immediate imprisonment. Where each case gets to in the process is a complex interplay of factors. I don’t think there’s anything sinister or corrupt about what has happened. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Onchan Posted June 22, 2023 Share Posted June 22, 2023 13 minutes ago, John Wright said: The whole route from offence to disposal is a series of discretionary gateways. offence occurs or is reported or detected. Police May or May not take any action at all. They may record it. They may decide to investigate. If they identify the offender they may have a chat and explain wrong doing. They may arrest. Then they may decide No further action, caution, send on a diversionary scheme, summons or charge. Once in court the prosecutor may agree to withdraw, caution or a bind over, or the court may impose an absolute or conditional discharge, a fine, community service, probation, suspended or immediate imprisonment. Where each case gets to in the process is a complex interplay of factors. I don’t think there’s anything sinister or corrupt about what has happened. How about the correct procedures or due process not being followed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted June 22, 2023 Share Posted June 22, 2023 2 minutes ago, Andy Onchan said: How about the correct procedures or due process not being followed? You’d have to be more specific. What procedures and due process do you think weren’t followed, on what basis? Evidence. They were on a closed road. Photos were taken. They were located and arrested and taken to HQ. Apart from the fact they were later announced to have been cautioned Im aware of nothing else. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Onchan Posted June 22, 2023 Share Posted June 22, 2023 4 minutes ago, John Wright said: You’d have to be more specific. What procedures and due process do you think weren’t followed, on what basis? Evidence. They were on a closed road. Photos were taken. They were located and arrested and taken to HQ. Apart from the fact they were later announced to have been cautioned Im aware of nothing else. Speculation JW, primarily because IOM Constabulary made it very, very clear to the public at large they would prosecute....not ifs no buts..... but they didn't. So something must have happened along the line somewhere for them not to prosecute. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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