TT 2023

[Ghost Ship]

6 hours ago, John Wright said:

Not sure your analysis is correct.

First, participants are required to have their own insurances for injury, medical care,  death, etc, as part of entry, sign up and participation...

I seem to remember looking at this on one of the TT threads last summer.

Isn't part of the problem that the insurance cover the ACU requires of competitors in respect of their own death PI etc is very very basic and wouldn't really provide sufficient in financial terms?

[John Wright]

11 minutes ago, Ghost Ship said:

I seem to remember looking at this on one of the TT threads last summer.

Isn't part of the problem that the insurance cover the ACU requires of competitors in respect of their own death PI etc is very very basic and wouldn't really provide sufficient in financial terms?

But that isn’t anything to do with the event insurance. It’s wholly separate. It gives basic cover, at admittedly very low levels, where the death or injury is not caused by the negligent fault or action or neglect, or nuisance, of the organisers.

The event insurance covers injury or death to participants, officials, spectators or those nearby  in case of the organisers not providing a safe course ( in compliance with the standards established for a road race course ) and this causing the death or injury to participants or officials or spectators, or things escaping the course and causing damage death or injury to adjoining injury/occupiers.

So poor track preparation or maintenance, if that’s the case, at Bray Hill, or sending riders back the wrong way and other vehicles in opposite direction so they collide, or allowing spectators in areas that are not safe in case of crash/racer leaving the course, or bits and pieces  flying into adjoining property.

The ACU cover is no fault insurance. The organisers insurance only pays out in case of fault ( negligence ) or escape ( nuisance ) by organisers/by participants.

[Blade Runner]

I wonder how much the 2 incidents after Bray Hill in the sidecar racing at last years TT have to do with the insurance company's decision to increase premiums.

Having headless corpses splattering over your front garden would be a very good reason for, at least me, if it were my garden, to raise a claim for PTSD 

The insurance Co.'s have maybe looked at those 2 incidents and thought "We don't need this kind of risk" Or even, for the small sums involved do we want to be seen associated with this type of human carnage?

In light of the above I am not convinced that after a couple of weeks, and panic meetings in the background, the IOM Motorsport lot on your island will wade in and pay the Irish insurance premiums "For the Greater Good".............

 

[John Wright]

5 minutes ago, Blade Runner said:

I wonder how much the 2 incidents after Bray Hill in the sidecar racing at last years TT have to do with the insurance company's decision to increase premiums.

Having headless corpses splattering over your front garden would be a very good reason for, at least me, if it were my garden, to raise a claim for PTSD 

The insurance Co.'s have maybe looked at those 2 incidents and thought "We don't need this kind of risk" Or even, for the small sums involved do we want to be seen associated with this type of human carnage?

In light of the above I am not convinced that after a couple of weeks, and panic meetings in the background, the IOM Motorsport lot on your island will wade in and pay the Irish insurance premiums "For the Greater Good".............

 

They will certainly have been notified and reserved for. So that will definitely impact premiums. Indeed it’s likely that precautionary reserves will have been put in place for any potential liability to the riders/passengers involved.

[Non-Believer]

[Kopek]

None of which excuses the cavalier attitude of our Govt that it ''Will be alright on the Night''?

[CallMeCurious]

1 hour ago, Kopek said:

None of which excuses the cavalier attitude of our Govt that it ''Will be alright on the Night''?

AKA the Ostrich principle ~ Ignore the problem, bend over and wait for the giant kick in the pants.

Never of course realising that uncertainty, especailly after the last 2 or 3 years, is not good for anyone with a stake in it. The lack of consultation on the recent timetable changes they rushed in for this years TT and MGP, is a case in point.

And where is the uber new scoreboard at? Hope it's not going to be another 'flume' like fiasco.

[Omobono]

does anyone know if the mercer claim has been settled yet ?    it seems to have taken ages , 

[0bserver]

Be interesting to know what premiums are being paid. May be worth an FOI, although I'm sure they'll cry commercial confidentiality 

[WTF]

11 hours ago, Non-Believer said:

and the 3 insurance  brokers are all talking to each other and the same underwriter 

[joebean]

11 hours ago, Non-Believer said:

I might be a bit thick, but I’m not really getting this. They are talking to brokers about insurance premiums on a risk that already has a “current claim bill outstanding of 7 million”. I assume that is £ rather than €. The underwriters are looking at a large current liability and are being asked to insure further risk and accept potential liabilities and have set a premium accordingly. It is likely to be high. I’m not sure what talking to the brokers will achieve in terms of reduced premiums. Reducing the premium would have the requirement to reduce the risk either by limiting the activity, making the activity less risky or accepting a greater proportion of the risk yourselves, either by a large excess or a cap on the compensation liability paid by the insurers. Of course any compensation awarded above that cap would have to be funded by the organisers or their financial underwriters (in the case of the IOM that would be the taxpayer). 
I suspect that the enthusiasts who run the sport are hoping to make the insurance underwriters enthusiasts too, thus taking on the risk for the love of the sport. That is not going to happen. The comments about disclaimers by riders and attendees and the compensation culture indicate a level of arrogance and naivety that is unlikely to progress their case. Let’s be clear, if you attend or compete in an event and are injured or killed as a result of the organisers negligence or inadequate management of risk, there will be claims; the process of settling claims may be lengthy and, if contested, very costly and this has little to do with culture but by seeking fair redress and complying with legal obligations. You can’t side step these obligations; you must seek appropriate financial protection or not undertake the risk. It seems that the Irish authorities are not willing to use taxpayer funding as a means of underwriting these risks. This is where they differ from the IOM. It would be interesting to see how many taxpayers here would agree with that when we can’t seem to pay for decent basic public services from existing revenues. 

[Blade Runner]

Try insuring 2 person duels with weapons

Try insuring competitive unsupported races to both geographic Poles.

Try insuring no oxygen accents of Everest races (I knew I could get an Everest Reference in here :-))

Try insuring a 18 year old in a Bugatti Veyron

Try insuring a MHK against not getting re-elected because they were "Too Smart".

No Insurance company in their right mind will insure stuff like the above and stuff like the Death Race TT and Ireland's death race feeder events where the TT get the raw meat from.

[Ghost Ship]

On 2/12/2023 at 9:37 AM, joebean said:

...The comments about disclaimers by riders and attendees and the compensation culture indicate a level of arrogance and naivety that is unlikely to progress their case. Let’s be clear, if you attend or compete in an event and are injured or killed as a result of the organisers negligence or inadequate management of risk, there will be claims; the process of settling claims may be lengthy and, if contested, very costly and this has little to do with culture but by seeking fair redress and complying with legal obligations. You can’t side step these obligations; you must seek appropriate financial protection or not undertake the risk. It seems that the Irish authorities are not willing to use taxpayer funding as a means of underwriting these risks. This is where they differ from the IOM...

Again +1

I can't believe that Ireland doesn't have similar legislation to that in the UK rendering "disclaimers" for causing death or personal injury ineffective (and I thought, in the UK at least, illegal).  I'm a bit surprised that the Irish organisers should feel the need to comment that "Disclaimers by riders and attendees are not considered sufficient".  I'd have thought that would have been both common sense and widely known.

Also buying future insurance if you already have seven million (euros or sterling) in claims outstanding is bound to be either impossible or very very expensive one way or another.

Problem is if you're a road racing fan/supporter in general (or of the TT in particular) then it seems that you don't really  want to recognise the true costs of staging the events or you even want to pretend those costs are unfair or unreasonable in some way. "It's all the fault of the greedy insurance companies and their extortionate premiums!!!" ☹️ .

(Just to be clear - as I said on another thread - I grew up right beside the TT course and I was a great fan of it from as young as I can remember until I was about 30 and Gene McDonnell was killed in 1986.  From then on I began to think it was all a bit too risky.  The circumstances leading up to the three deaths at the 26th in 2007 made me doubt it even more.)

 

 

[John Wright]

4 hours ago, Ghost Ship said:

Again +1

I can't believe that Ireland doesn't have similar legislation to that in the UK rendering "disclaimers" for causing death or personal injury ineffective (and I thought, in the UK at least, illegal).  I'm a bit surprised that the Irish organisers should feel the need to comment that "Disclaimers by riders and attendees are not considered sufficient".  I'd have thought that would have been both common sense and widely known.

Also buying future insurance if you already have seven million (euros or sterling) in claims outstanding is bound to be either impossible or very very expensive one way or another.

Problem is if you're a road racing fan/supporter in general (or of the TT in particular) then it seems that you don't really  want to recognise the true costs of staging the events or you even want to pretend those costs are unfair or unreasonable in some way. "It's all the fault of the greedy insurance companies and their extortionate premiums!!!" ☹️ .

(Just to be clear - as I said on another thread - I grew up right beside the TT course and I was a great fan of it from as young as I can remember until I was about 30 and Gene McDonnell was killed in 1986.  From then on I began to think it was all a bit too risky.  The circumstances leading up to the three deaths at the 26th in 2007 made me doubt it even more.).

Ireland does have equivalent legislation to the UK and IoM about exclusion of liability by way of unfair contract terms and in particular those that limit liability for injury and death. They’re all based, in their current version, on EU directives.

But, and  here’s the rub, they’re aimed at consumers. A spectator around the course is a consumer in this context, even if they haven’t paid. In any event they’ve not signed up to any exclusion, unless they’re in a paid for area.

Theres an interesting issue then as to the status of a competitor who signs a disclaimer or avoidance. They aren’t a consumer. Or is the law starting to consider them as consumers.

40 years ago there wouldn’t have been any question. No liability towards competitors, even if the organisers were negligent.

It’s much more nuanced and subtle now. Derek Flint has alluded to it. It’s the ECHR and the right to life. The courts are more and more likely to stretch the law to extend the protections from “pure” consumers. Especially if there is gross negligence, inadequate course construction, sending people back round the course wrong way to meet a car they’ve sent round in the opposite direction.

So, I think the Irish organiser’s comment is actually a fair understanding.

[wrighty]

@John Wright

What’s your view, as an experienced observer of all things Manx, a lawyer, and general wise counsel, as to the long term prospects of TT carrying on?