TT 2023

[Roger Mexico]

44 minutes ago, Non-Believer said:

And yet the numbers of deaths and serious injuries remains at an almost constant level, we can expect to lose at least 2 competitors per year on average

I make it an average of 3.5 over the last 10 seasons (inc MGP, but not Billown).

[HeliX]

1 hour ago, Non-Believer said:

With the increased safety requirements and knowledge, that number of casualties and fatalities should surely be falling?

I know you sort of address it in the next sentence, but surely it occured while writing each line of that post that the other thing that's constantly "improving" is the lap record...

[Happier diner]

6 hours ago, Non-Believer said:

Food for thought?

Safety and equipment standards have never been higher, in helmets and suits and riding clothing technology. Stipulations by the organisers in respect of the above are ever more demanding.

Course organisation and management must be at a level not seen before in its history.

Human medical knowledge must also be at its current peak, in the treatment of injuries and the preservation of life.

And yet the numbers of deaths and serious injuries remains at an almost constant level, we can expect to lose at least 2 competitors per year on average (with some years being noticeably worse), the number who are left with life changing injuries is less obvious but equally present.

With the increased safety requirements and knowledge, that number of casualties and fatalities should surely be falling?

Or are the improvements just keeping the number at bay whilst we pursue the mantra of ever higher speeds and spectacle?

The fatality and injury rate will never reduce by any significant amount until changes are made to the course to make it more like a racing circuit and less like roads and streets. It being roads and streets being the significant hazard. 

[Non-Believer]

4 hours ago, HeliX said:

I know you sort of address it in the next sentence, but surely it occured while writing each line of that post that the other thing that's constantly "improving" is the lap record...

That's what I'm getting at, whatever we are trying to implement in respect of safety improvements (obviously aimed at reducing the number of deaths/injuries) is just being cancelled out because we're not looking at that angle and there's a very good reason for that, that we all know.

Maybe last year was tragically exceptional but we also lost 6 in 1970, so you could argue that things haven't improved in 52 years in that respect. Whatever we are trying to do is just being negated.

Compare that with other forms of motorsport, say F1 for example where there used to be horrendous deaths and injuries, now reduced to almost zero, certainly not at the levels they were in the 1970s and yet it continues to be a huge global commercial success.

Our elephant in the room is being ignored at the cost of people's lives.

[Happier diner]

6 minutes ago, Non-Believer said:

That's what I'm getting at, whatever we are trying to implement in respect of safety improvements (obviously aimed at reducing the number of deaths/injuries) is just being cancelled out because we're not looking at that angle and there's a very good reason for that, that we all know.

Maybe last year was tragically exceptional but we also lost 6 in 1970, so you could argue that things haven't improved in 52 years in that respect. Whatever we are trying to do is just being negated.

Compare that with other forms of motorsport, say F1 for example where there used to be horrendous deaths and injuries, now reduced to almost zero, certainly not at the levels they were in the 1970s and yet it continues to be a huge global commercial success.

Our elephant in the room is being ignored at the cost of people's lives.

But like I say, the reality is, you can't change roads and streets into a formula 1 style racing circuit. Not for motorcycles any way. A racer on bike is way more vulnerable so you have a deathly 6 pointer. A highly vulnerable person on a nore hazardous circuit. Formula 1 is a well protected person on a safer racetrack.  The result is many more deaths and mutilation TT. 

I agree that it's disappointing that we don't even try. Yeah a few pillows tied to lampposts and mattresses on corners, but they are just window dressing. If we were serious about saving lives we would be slowing it down and addressing hazardous areas and situations. 

[Ativa]

50 minutes ago, Non-Believer said:

That's what I'm getting at, whatever we are trying to implement in respect of safety improvements (obviously aimed at reducing the number of deaths/injuries) is just being cancelled out because we're not looking at that angle and there's a very good reason for that, that we all know.

Maybe last year was tragically exceptional but we also lost 6 in 1970, so you could argue that things haven't improved in 52 years in that respect. Whatever we are trying to do is just being negated.

Compare that with other forms of motorsport, say F1 for example where there used to be horrendous deaths and injuries, now reduced to almost zero, certainly not at the levels they were in the 1970s and yet it continues to be a huge global commercial success.

Our elephant in the room is being ignored at the cost of people's lives.

Four of last years deaths were due to what were believed to be issues with sidecar bodywork and new rules have been implemented this year to hopefully avoid any repeat.

Every incident is looked at and improvements are constantly being made.

The competitors asses the risk every time they put on their helmet.  A Marshall assesses their own risk every time they turn up and so do spectators.

 

[Dr Beeching]

35 minutes ago, Ativa said:

Four of last years deaths were due to what were believed to be issues with sidecar bodywork and new rules have been implemented this year to hopefully avoid any repeat.

Every incident is looked at and improvements are constantly being made.

The competitors asses the risk every time they put on their helmet.  A Marshall assesses their own risk every time they turn up and so do spectators.

 

And?

[Happier diner]

35 minutes ago, Ativa said:

Four of last years deaths were due to what were believed to be issues with sidecar bodywork and new rules have been implemented this year to hopefully avoid any repeat.

Every incident is looked at and improvements are constantly being made.

The competitors asses the risk every time they put on their helmet.  A Marshall assesses their own risk every time they turn up and so do spectators.

 

And yet the death rate never reduces. Therefore this procedure (whilst necessary (is not making a difference. 

[Non-Believer]

16 minutes ago, Ativa said:

Four of last years deaths were due to what were believed to be issues with sidecar bodywork and new rules have been implemented this year to hopefully avoid any repeat.

Every incident is looked at and improvements are constantly being made.

The competitors asses the risk every time they put on their helmet.  A Marshall assesses their own risk every time they turn up and so do spectators.

 

"Safety improvements" are largely reactionary and are trailing behind other matters, the old, "they know what they're doing/died doing what they loved" strapline is just the old get out romantic clause trap you are falling into.

There are other pointers to what I'm trying to get across. As we encourage/coerce the top guys to go faster, the rest are obliged to try and keep up in the name of replica pace, in some cases beyond their abilities in which case they imperil not only themselves but others. The present answer? Get rid of them and reduce the field. But where does this end? When we're down to 20 riders? 10? Just so the top 10 guys can chase ever increasing speeds?

Road improvements....there was a time when the course was recognised for being what it was and the riders rode to it. That meant rolling it off for known areas if necessary. Now riders expect to be able to ride flat out everywhere and anywhere not meeting that criteria is expected/has to be immediately addressed, Sulby Straight being the latest example. It's chicken and egg, the faster the riders go, the better they expect/need the course conditions to be. And the better those conditions, the faster they will go.

Everything is geared towards increasing the speeds, short circuit riding style, track condition expectancy and commerce has taken over. I'm not advocating a return to dirt and gravel roads in any way but the attitude to racing on the course has changed massively in the name of revenue and commerce and it is why we can't see any improvement in the fatality and injury rate despite belatedly tinkering with safety matters. But the bottom line is, we are killing 2+ people a year in the name of it, some in horrific conditions that are involving innocent bystanders. How long this path is sustainable is the big question.

[WTF]

9 hours ago, cheesypeas said:

1.  I have never thought about it.  Individual accidents involving competitors are just that.  They know what they are doing so I those don’t really upset me.
 

This is what bothers me about the TT. Especially after last year. “They know what they are doing / getting themselves into / died doing what they loved etc etc etc. But what about the home owner on Quarterbridge Road who had someone’s head in her garden. Or those who witnessed it, or those who had to pick bits out of the wall, or those who had to wash the blood off the pavement. Will they ever forget their experience? 

ignoring the home owner aspect, the rest is part of the job/responsibility the others have signed up to.

[WTF]

10 minutes ago, Non-Believer said:

"Safety improvements" are largely reactionary 

of course they are ,  if what exists seems to be working and nothing comes along to highlight a specific issue then it isn't going to be looked at to be improved as everything seems ok. 

[Happier diner]

3 minutes ago, WTF said:

ignoring the home owner aspect

....is not good. 😒

[Happier diner]

11 minutes ago, WTF said:

of course they are ,  if what exists seems to be working and nothing comes along to highlight a specific issue then it isn't going to be looked at to be improved as everything seems ok. 

This is true. But reducing risks is also about thinking about the chance of other things happening.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.acu.org.uk/Uploaded/1/Documents/2020%20Event%20Paperwork/2020-ACU-MX-General-Risk-Assessment-v2.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiRk-mm8Ir_AhWLXcAKHYsDAJYQFnoECBUQAQ&usg=AOvVaw13Uk7R_X0up9FT_wSv6gJO

[Zarley]

37 minutes ago, Happier diner said:

And yet the death rate never reduces. Therefore this procedure (whilst necessary (is not making a difference. 

How can you say it doesn't make a difference? If safety issues weren't being addressed and adjusted every year, the death rate would be going up in line with the increasing speeds, rather than remaining relatively static. That looks like a big difference to me.

[Ativa]

29 minutes ago, Happier diner said:

....is not good. 😒

The home owner aspect falls into the same category - unless someone is old enough to have purchased their house before the current circuit was in use.

People had an option to buy their house or not.

I live the TT and my kids have always watched it but would I have ever purchased a house at Ballagarey, Douglas Road corner or Hilberry and let them sit in the garden? Nope