Manx alcohol measure reduced from 27.5ml to 25ml

[Stu Peters]

8 hours ago, AOR said:

In the Keys 21 for, 6 against. Legislative Council voted in favour.

This was seconded by Stu Peters who will be able to provide any further details.

I would have thought 30ml would have been the better option.

Happy to oblige as Vice Chairman of the OFT (the reason I seconded).

Fundamentally a supply problem with the old optics, which are essentially unavailable now unless you buy a job lot of them and leave them on a shelf for years. 25ml is the UK standard (Roxy may be correct about Scotland) and universally available. Booze manufacturers often give them away to account customers, so there shouldn't be much of a cost to the licensed trade. USA still works in fluid ounces, but they're different to Imperial measures. Pints remain pints and yes, you're entitled to a full measure, although why anyone would kick off because a glass isn't brimmed to overflowing is (and always has been) beyond me.

[Roger Mexico]

3 hours ago, AOR said:

Talking about decimal places of millilitre. It's crazy. 

Should have stuck with 1/5 of a gill and called it exactly that. What's anyone - EU? - going to do about it?

It was metricised to 28.4 ml decades ago because that was 1/5 gill to within measurable limits.  It was done because trading standards, like every other bunch of scientists, make been working in the metric system for the last century.  In practice the measures weren't changed, just relabelled.

But there was always a problem getting the special 'Manx' measures, especially optics.  I think Scotland also used 1/5 gill traditionally and Ireland used 1/4 gill, though I've a feeling some bars in Scotland did as well and made a feature of it.  So the Manx just used the measures made for Scotland.  But they dropped that a long time ago and presumably the trade has been reliant on old stock and specially made batches that cost a lot.

It's amazing that it's lasted so long to be honest.  The British switched to a choice of 25 ml or 35 ml (but not both on the same premises) as long ago as 1984.  Presumably the reason is that Manx politics has been dominated by men who didn't really know what they were doing but knew they wanted a large drink.

Of course the bottles that the gin, rum, vodka, brandy or whisky[1] come out of have been metric sizes for decades as well, all of which has been determined by the market, not by the EU (which has always been relaxed about locally used measures).

If anyone wants more information the Tynwald notes for the changes are here.

[1]  Technically these are the only spirits that have to be served in these measures, though it tends to become the default for the rest.  In the UK the regulations don't even apply to brandy.

[John Wright]

2 hours ago, Stu Peters said:

Happy to oblige as Vice Chairman of the OFT (the reason I seconded).

Fundamentally a supply problem with the old optics, which are essentially unavailable now unless you buy a job lot of them and leave them on a shelf for years. 25ml is the UK standard (Roxy may be correct about Scotland) and universally available. Booze manufacturers often give them away to account customers, so there shouldn't be much of a cost to the licensed trade. USA still works in fluid ounces, but they're different to Imperial measures. Pints remain pints and yes, you're entitled to a full measure, although why anyone would kick off because a glass isn't brimmed to overflowing is (and always has been) beyond me.

A UK and a US fluid ounce are identical. It’s just that there are only 16 in a pint in the US and 20 in a pint in UK. Which is why a US gallon is smaller than a UK gallon

[FSM]

1 hour ago, John Wright said:

A UK and a US fluid ounce are identical. It’s just that there are only 16 in a pint in the US and 20 in a pint in UK. Which is why a US gallon is smaller than a UK gallon

US fluid ounce is slightly bigger…By about 1ml.

[jackwhite]

9 hours ago, alpha-acid said:

Go ahead invest yourself if you think it's profitable

You talking to yourself now? 

9 hours ago, emesde said:

Yes I can see its not a nice round figure, but we have never used optics  of 27.5 ml and never seen any anywhere. We used optics measured as fifth of a gill and every single optic had to be checked by iom weights and measures dept and government stamped and sealed. The reason being that the suppliers could not get them stamped in the UK as fifth of a gill was not a permitted legal spirit measure. 

It was a mistake in the original thread heading as my mind was elsewhere. You can't fix that. I corrected it in the first post.

Are you always this pedantic? I'm also sure most of are aware of what you're telling us.

[AOR]

7 hours ago, Stu Peters said:

Happy to oblige as Vice Chairman of the OFT (the reason I seconded).

Obviously this is not an earth shattering/Isle of Man sinking motion, but thank you sir - response appreciated.

I went through decimilisation at school.

My first job on a building site. It was not unusual to see instructions - for example -  "the pipe work should be situated approximately 1 ft (304mm) away from the wall".

We're still kind of in that frame of mind.

No one has ever been served a pint. - exactly a pint. Otherwise it would always spill as soon as you picked the glass up. There was a law in UK end of 1970s that beer glasses should have a line showing the pint mark. There was about half an inch (12.7mm!) spare at the top to allow for froth. I don't know what happened to that law but Isle of Man suddenly became inundated with the now outdated pint glasses from UK.

On another off-topic, I remember people getting into fights in Douglas with the starting gambit being  "..'ere, you looking at my pint?".  I think that was from thugs, who invariably wouldn't have a 'bird' for others to look at as the opening subject.

  "...'ere, you looking at my 568.261 millilitres" just sound stupid, especially when it was more than likely somewhat inaccurate.

 

[kevster]

24 minutes ago, AOR said:

No one has ever been served a pint. - exactly a pint. Otherwise it would always spill as soon as you picked the glass up. There was a law in UK end of 1970s that beer glasses should have a line showing the pint mark. There was about half an inch (12.7mm!) spare at the top to allow for froth. I don't know what happened to that law but Isle of Man suddenly became inundated with the now outdated pint glasses from UK.

"Over the years, the generally accepted norm is that a pint containing a minimum 95% liquid and 5% head is OK. However, this is a legally complex area and if you ask for a pint, perhaps you should really expect to get a full pint of liquid"

Source

[jackwhite]

1 hour ago, AOR said:

Obviously this is not an earth shattering/Isle of Man sinking motion, but thank you sir - response appreciated.

I went through decimilisation at school.

My first job on a building site. It was not unusual to see instructions - for example -  "the pipe work should be situated approximately 1 ft (304mm) away from the wall".

We're still kind of in that frame of mind.

No one has ever been served a pint. - exactly a pint. Otherwise it would always spill as soon as you picked the glass up. There was a law in UK end of 1970s that beer glasses should have a line showing the pint mark. There was about half an inch (12.7mm!) spare at the top to allow for froth. I don't know what happened to that law but Isle of Man suddenly became inundated with the now outdated pint glasses from UK.

On another off-topic, I remember people getting into fights in Douglas with the starting gambit being  "..'ere, you looking at my pint?".  I think that was from thugs, who invariably wouldn't have a 'bird' for others to look at as the opening subject.

  "...'ere, you looking at my 568.261 millilitres" just sound stupid, especially when it was more than likely somewhat inaccurate.

 

Still lined glasses kicking about. I use them when I'm serving. Thought they had to be but can only go off what I do.

Think you're referring to over sized glasses. There's a big argument for these but most people aren't bothered. I do always (as every pub should) point out their right to a top up if they aren't happy when serving a pint.

Big debate going on in the beer world in general as CAMRA have sent a letter to Government asking for it to be a pint of full liquid. Think they've got bigger issues to focus on.

[Raffles]

It's a shame. A little bit more Manxness lost to Englishness. 

[alpha-acid]

10 minutes ago, Raffles said:

It's a shame. A little bit more Manxness lost to Englishness. 

It is not we just can not buy them from anywhere

[AOR]

We can put a man on the moon but can't source 1/5 gill optics?

Or more actually, we can build ejector seats for many of the world's fighter aircraft and thermostats for many of the worlds kettle industries, valves for the world's oil industry etc but can't produce a blah blah...

Edited June 27, 2022 by AOR

[Albert Tatlock]

16 minutes ago, AOR said:

We can put a man on the moon but can't source 1/5 gill optics?

I highly suspect you're confusing advanced technology with the fact that most of our MHKs fathers should have shot their offspring into space.

[Beyond Belief]

Its simple, don't go out, and lets see how quickly they reduce their prices and increase their measures.  Play them at their own game.   

[hissingsid]

Less and less people are venturing into public houses as a result of rising prices on all commodities and I think this winter is going to be very hard for the hospitality industry so it is hardly a matter for great concern.

[alpha-acid]

41 minutes ago, hissingsid said:

Less and less people are venturing into public houses as a result of rising prices on all commodities and I think this winter is going to be very hard for the hospitality industry so it is hardly a matter for great concern.

 

2 hours ago, Beyond Belief said:

Its simple, don't go out, and lets see how quickly they reduce their prices and increase their measures.  Play them at their own game.   

That is happening already a lot of H+B pubs are shut Mon and Tues already, will be Wed, Thur next and only open for the weekend. They can't staff the pubs so look forward to a Pub less IoM