Isle of Man Creamery ‘Pride’ cheese

[The Voice of Reason]

20 hours ago, HeliX said:

Thank goodness you're here to completely demolish decades of scientific study into psychology and gender identity by taking issue over the wording of a wikipedia article and selectively quoting definitions of one of the words.

There’s decades of scientific studies into all sorts of things like psychology , gender identity ,racial identity etc
Some such studies claim to have evidence, for example that white Europeans are inherently more intelligent than those from Afro Caribbean descent.

Would you give that any credence because it is a “scientific study”

[manxman1980]

16 minutes ago, Hoops said:

This is not to belittle homosexuality in any way, but I have a friend who had a spell of same sex relationships but is now happily married to someone of the other sex.

Could that not be because of the "B" in LGBTQ+?

[HeliX]

3 hours ago, Newsdesk said:

It isn’t even on the basis of some of the stuff you’ve linked to above. You’re saying that it’s entirely acceptable for people to now make up their gender and then demand that other people interact with them in a way that aligns to what they have made up in their head via use of made up pronouns. Just treat people as people -  male, female or whatever it really doesn’t matter. 

Everything is made up, Newsdesk.

[The Voice of Reason]

6 minutes ago, manxman1980 said:

Could that not be because of the "B" in LGBTQ+?

Very likely I’d say

[The Voice of Reason]

20 hours ago, HeliX said:

You don't think there are three genders, even though I demonstrated many cultures have had 3 genders for considerably longer than any of us have existed? Interesting.

Well you haven’t demonstrated there are three genders.
Many cultures have different ideas from our own including having three genders. That’s fine let them crack on.

Our culture only has two genders.

It’s not that interesting 

 

[HeliX]

1 minute ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Well you haven’t demonstrated there are three genders.
Many cultures have different ideas from our own including having three genders. That’s fine let them crack on.

Our culture only has two genders.

It’s not that interesting 

?

My post said "I demonstrated many cultures have had 3 genders", which you have just agreed with.

[The Voice of Reason]

3 minutes ago, HeliX said:

?

My post said "I demonstrated many cultures have had 3 genders", which you have just agreed with.

 You  said “you don’t  think there are three genders”

In the context of everything else you have posted that’s a bit of weasel wordery and a bit of a loophole for you to wriggle out of.

But yes taking it literally you are right.

[HeliX]

3 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

 You  said “you don’t  think there are three genders”

In the context of everything else you have posted that’s a bit of weasel wordery and a bit of a loophole for you to wriggle out of.

But yes taking it literally you are right.

But because gender is a construct, the existence of places with (at least) 3 genders means there are (at least) 3 genders.

[The Voice of Reason]

13 minutes ago, HeliX said:

But because gender is a construct, the existence of places with (at least) 3 genders means there are (at least) 3 genders.

One gender being male, one gender being female.

The third gender being? (As per my previous post ignoring the rare hermaphrodite.)

 

[HeliX]

2 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

One gender being male, one gender being female.

The third gender being? (As per my previous post ignoring the rare hermaphrodite.)

 

You're conflating gender and sex again - hermaphrodites aren't a separate gender (though they can, of course, be male, female or non-binary in terms of gender).

In most of the cultures who have it, the third gender is either someone who conforms closer to gender norms typical of the opposite sex, or someone who doesn't conform to gender norms typical of either sex. So the equivalent of either transgender or non-binary in our culture.

[Hoops]

1 hour ago, manxman1980 said:

Could that not be because of the "B" in LGBTQ+?

Maybe, they would  say no, it doesn't really matter.

The point is, there is no permanence to what may have been, for lack of a better word, a phase.

Richie Herron, currently suing the NHS, is a tragic case in point.

[The Voice of Reason]

11 minutes ago, HeliX said:

In most of the cultures who have it, the third gender is either someone who conforms closer to gender norms typical of the opposite sex, or someone who doesn't conform to gender norms typical of either sex. So the equivalent of either transgender or non-binary in our culture.

OK let’s assume for a minute that people understand or care about the above explanation.

I don’t understand all the angst and the need for labelling.

We live in a much more liberal society than we did decades ago.

Thats not to pretend that there is still not a problem with homophobia and the like.

But by and large it’s not really an issue for most people. ( I know I speak to them)

All this business with Halifax name badges it etc only serves to potentially reverse the changes of the last few decades by leading to ridicule ( and it is ridiculous) and alienate those people who would otherwise be supportive of trans rights.

I myself am supportive of trans rights but cannot make a sensible case against those who find it , too be honest just plain silly.

Its a case of shooting yourself in the foot.

[HeliX]

1 minute ago, Hoops said:

Maybe, they would  say no, it doesn't really matter.

The point is, there is no permanence to what may have been, for lack of a better word, a phase.

Richie Herron, currently suing the NHS, is a tragic case in point.

There are definitely tragic cases where someone transitioned when they perhaps should not have. And we should be studying and learning to make those cases less frequent.

But, the "regret" rate is somewhere between .3% and 3.8% depending on study, and regrets are most likely to result from a lack of social support after transition or poor surgical outcomes using older techniques. If we compare that to the suicidality rate in trans people who are unable to access or afford gender-affirming care, or who encounter hostile social environments, I think it's clear where the bigger problem lies for now.

If anyone wants to look at the data, here's a good aggregation of high-quality studies:

https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/

[HeliX]

1 minute ago, The Voice of Reason said:

OK let’s assume for a minute that people understand or care about the above explanation.

I don’t understand all the angst and the need for labelling.

We live in a much more liberal society than we did decades ago.

Thats not to pretend that there is still not a problem with homophobia and the like.

But by and large it’s not really an issue for most people. ( I know I speak to them)

All this business with Halifax name badges it etc only serves to potentially reverse the changes of the last few decades by leading to ridicule ( and it is ridiculous) and alienate those people who would otherwise be supportive of trans rights.

I myself am supportive of trans rights but cannot make a sensible case against those who find it , too be honest just plain silly.

Its a case of shooting yourself in the foot.

I'm confused by your objection to preferred pronouns. I honestly don't see what's objectionable about it. If we're happy to accept Calvin Broadus Jr as "Snoop Dogg" for the last 30 odd years without question, I don't see what can be upsetting about your bank teller preferring to be known as "they" or "she" or "he" or whatever.

[Hoops]

44 minutes ago, HeliX said:

But because gender is a construct, the existence of places with (at least) 3 genders means there are (at least) 3 genders.

Well, the area of the brain called the hypothalamus differs between males and females. Testosterone exposure in utero appears to drive this difference between male and female brains, which would strongly suggest that gender is not wholly a social construct. Biologically, we have different brains, as well as bodies.