HeliX Posted July 3, 2022 Share Posted July 3, 2022 4 minutes ago, Hoops said: Well, the area of the brain called the hypothalamus differs between males and females. Testosterone exposure in utero appears to drive this difference between male and female brains, which would strongly suggest that gender is not wholly a social construct. Biologically, we have different brains, as well as bodies. We are biological, so it's pretty much a guarantee that everything we do or experience is rooted in our biology in some way. But the difference in brain structure between (biological) men and (biological) women would be a sex-based difference, not one of gender, no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted July 3, 2022 Share Posted July 3, 2022 7 minutes ago, HeliX said: I'm confused by your objection to preferred pronouns. I honestly don't see what's objectionable about it. If we're happy to accept Calvin Broadus Jr as "Snoop Dogg" for the last 30 odd years without question, I don't see what can be upsetting about your bank teller preferring to be known as "they" or "she" or "he" or whatever. It’s not upsetting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted July 3, 2022 Share Posted July 3, 2022 Just now, The Voice of Reason said: It’s not upsetting. Well, whatever negative word is the appropriate one - why is it that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoops Posted July 3, 2022 Share Posted July 3, 2022 14 minutes ago, HeliX said: We are biological, so it's pretty much a guarantee that everything we do or experience is rooted in our biology in some way. But the difference in brain structure between (biological) men and (biological) women would be a sex-based difference, not one of gender, no? Well, if gender is a reference to social and cultural differences, then they are informed by the brain. The fact that men and women have different brain structures cannot be coincidental to gender identity? To how we see the world? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted July 3, 2022 Share Posted July 3, 2022 Just now, Hoops said: Well, if gender is a reference to social and cultural differences, then they are informed by the brain. The fact that men and women have different brain structures cannot be coincidental to gender identity? To how we see the world? Informed, sure, but not deterministic. Though the "why" is mostly idle curiosity and hopes for finding the most effective treatments for people for me really, as mentioned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted July 3, 2022 Share Posted July 3, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, HeliX said: Well, whatever negative word is the appropriate one - why is it that? It’s not negative. It’s irrelevant. Perhaps customers of the Halifax when visiting the bank should wear their own badge advising the staff how they would like to be addressed. Imagine driving along and being pulled over by the police ( say for speeding) The police person ( he, she, they ) comes up to your drivers window. You roll the window down and they say “ Good morning Sir or Madam or whatever you would like to be called. Do you know why I have stopped you?” Where does this all madness end? Edited July 3, 2022 by The Voice of Reason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted July 3, 2022 Share Posted July 3, 2022 13 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said: It’s not negative. It’s irrelevant. Perhaps customers of the Halifax when visiting the bank should wear their own badge advising the staff how they would like to be addressed. Where does this all end? It's not irrelevant if it helps people feel more accepted and lowers the suicide rate. Yes the customers are free to do that. Where does it end? Unimaginable horrors of nametags having more letters on I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoops Posted July 4, 2022 Share Posted July 4, 2022 8 hours ago, HeliX said: Informed, sure, but not deterministic. Though the "why" is mostly idle curiosity and hopes for finding the most effective treatments for people for me really, as mentioned. Well, I'll stop after this post as I'm sure we are both looking for confirmation of our views when we do our research, and this conversation will be endless! The most effective treatment is the goal for sure, I suppose the question is, what are we dealing with? There is no simple answer as the term 'trans' covers a spectrum of people, from those born with intersex features to those with mental health issues. So while you may applaud the exponential increase in children being referred to gender identity clinics as a sign of a more tolerant society, I have huge reservations that some of this may be kids finding new names to issues of identity and attention. And then we get on the subject of the trans community and women's rights. Oh lord! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted July 4, 2022 Share Posted July 4, 2022 58 minutes ago, Hoops said: Well, I'll stop after this post as I'm sure we are both looking for confirmation of our views when we do our research, and this conversation will be endless! The most effective treatment is the goal for sure, I suppose the question is, what are we dealing with? There is no simple answer as the term 'trans' covers a spectrum of people, from those born with intersex features to those with mental health issues. So while you may applaud the exponential increase in children being referred to gender identity clinics as a sign of a more tolerant society, I have huge reservations that some of this may be kids finding new names to issues of identity and attention. And then we get on the subject of the trans community and women's rights. Oh lord! That Cornell link I posted earlier does show that transition is effective in improving lives. I don't think kids are being pushed into making irreversible changes. Quite the opposite - in most cases they're still not getting the support they need. I don't think there's a clash between women's rights and trans. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
0bserver Posted July 4, 2022 Share Posted July 4, 2022 Some of you will need to check your change carefully. I hate to think how upset you would be if you ended up with a Pride 50p. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted July 4, 2022 Share Posted July 4, 2022 (edited) 11 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said: Perhaps customers of the Halifax when visiting the bank should wear their own badge advising the staff how they would like to be addressed. There is absolutely nothing stopping you from wearing a badge showing your preferred pronouns. 11 hours ago, The Voice of Reason said: Imagine driving along and being pulled over by the police ( say for speeding) The police person ( he, she, they ) comes up to your drivers window. You roll the window down and they say “ Good morning Sir or Madam or whatever you would like to be called. Do you know why I have stopped you?” Where does this all madness end? Imagine simply saying, "Good morning, do you know why I have stopped you?" You can even reply with, "Morning Officer, I am afraid I don't". Absolutely no need to use pronouns in that initial exchange. ETA: Or you could just continue to wear the badge you have displaying your preferred pronouns from your visit to the Halifax Edited July 4, 2022 by manxman1980 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan Posted July 4, 2022 Share Posted July 4, 2022 2 minutes ago, manxman1980 said: Imagine simply saying, "Good morning, do you know why I have stopped you?" You can even reply with, "Morning Officer, I am afraid I don't". Absolutely no need to use pronouns in that initial exchange. Ahh but that deprives the police person from condescendingly calling you sir or madam⸮ I'm pretty sure a conscientious and professional police officer knows how to address people in a way that doesn't exacerbate the situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredtosser Posted July 4, 2022 Share Posted July 4, 2022 I am personally more offended by Arbory & Rushen Commissioners ramming the Methodist Church propaganda down my throat on a near daily basis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Declan Posted July 4, 2022 Share Posted July 4, 2022 32 minutes ago, fredtosser said: I am personally more offended by Arbory & Rushen Commissioners ramming the Methodist Church propaganda down my throat on a near daily basis. How non-non-conformist of you! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bastard Posted July 4, 2022 Share Posted July 4, 2022 21 minutes ago, offshoremanxman said: Or maybe the next woke police greeting will be “Good morning, I notice that you’re not wearing a badge informing me of your preferred pronouns. Please tell me how I should be formally addressing you before I ask you to get out of the vehicle” The Manx potentially have a real problem too when it comes to traditional greetings. Is it too presumptuous anymore to be addressing anyone as “fella”? I mean you wouldn’t want to cause offense if there weren’t identifying as a fella. Go for "Yessir". If you're a ham-faced dinosaur that gets all sweaty by publicly broadcasting about the unacceptability of transgenderism, whilst secretly being thrilled and slightly aroused by the whole idea (hence a desperate need to post about it everywhere), you can translate it as "you, sir". If you live in the post-1950's and have no deep-rooted insecurity about your own gender identity, you can translate it as "ussey", an archaic gender-neutral term for "you". 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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