JK Rowling Manx Flag Controversy

[AcousticallyChallenged]

1 minute ago, Hoops said:

Gov uk offenders management statistics Aril - june 2021 sexual offences made up 18% of the prison population. But 45% of the trans prison population in march/april 2018, when the foi request was made. 

My objective is not to denigrate the trans population, as I think my earlier post made clear, but to try to make you understand why many women do not want trans people  in their domestic abuse refuges, rape crisis centres and prison wings. 

When a legal challenge, brought about by an ex-inmate who claimed to have been sexually assaulted, to prevent transgender inmates with convictions with sexual or violent offences against women was rejected, judge Holroyde said "I can accept, at any rate for present purposes, that the unconditional introduction of a transgender woman into the general population of a woman's prison carries a statistically greater risk of sexual assault upon non transgender prisoners then would be the case if a non-transgender woman was introduced". The mitigations work well, ask karen White.

I don't think there's any point in continuing this conversation any further.

 

Yet, you don't acknowledge the bias that your source itself acknowledges. The more serious/severe sentences are very likely to be over-represented. You'd need to adjust your 18% figure to account for that.

Based on your data, transgender sexual offences were around 10x lower than cisgender offences, per head of population.

We are talking innumerably small numbers of people at this stage. The risk therefore is also incredibly low too.

It is a weak, transphobic narrative that claims men are transitioning to be able to attack women. The evidence simply doesn't support that.

Nothing now stops a cisgender man from walking into a woman's space to attack them. The biggest perpetrators of sexual violence against both cisgender and transwomen is men. Not other women.

[AcousticallyChallenged]

I do find it interesting though that it's a couple of blokes arguing vehemently against the rights of trans women.

I suppose, in their eyes middle-aged men always know what is best for women.

[The Voice of Reason]

23 hours ago, HeliX said:

The trans athletes in sport argument is far from settled, but it's also just such a fuss over (at the moment) nothing. No trans athlete has ever won a top tier competition. Occasionally a trans person will do better than expected in a college level event, and it'll be national news. Despite it affecting maybe 100 people, ever. It's nonsense. Nobody wants the destruction of women's sports, everybody wants fairness, but the whole "trans athletes in sport" thing is so blown out of proportion it's absurd. 

 

Well you say it’s blown out of all proportion but if you were a non trans women losing a race to a trans woman you may reasonably feel cheated.

If this transgender thing is such a trivial thing ( as say in the context of sport) why is it generating so much comment and angst?

( Sorry I can’t get rid of the picture of the individual above)

Edited July 6, 2022 by The Voice of Reason

[AcousticallyChallenged]

2 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Well you say it’s blown out of all proportion but if you were a non trans women losing a race to a trans woman you may reasonably feel cheated.

If this transgender thing is such a trivial thing ( as say in the context of sport) why is it generating so much comment and angst?

( Sorry I can’t get rid of the picture of the individual above)

Professional sport is an issue that impacts only a reasonable minority of the trans population, but it sells papers, generates clicks and spurs divisiveness.

In sport, there is already a growing amount of regulation around even the hormone levels of cisgender women. Elite runners have been excluded on that basis, as an example.

[The Voice of Reason]

Just now, AcousticallyChallenged said:

Professional sport is an issue that impacts only a reasonable minority of the trans population, but it sells papers, generates clicks and spurs divisiveness.

In sport, there is already a growing amount of regulation around even the hormone levels of cisgender women. Elite runners have been excluded on that basis, as an example.

But surely to become an “elite” runner you would have to work your way up through the ranks beating trans people.

Or have I got that wrong? I don’t know much about how these things work.

All I know is that if someone has an unfair advantage, it’s not right

[AcousticallyChallenged]

2 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

But surely to become an “elite” runner you would have to work your way up through the ranks beating trans people.

Or have I got that wrong? I don’t know much about how these things work.

All I know is that if someone has an unfair advantage, it’s not right

No, my point was, that even in female-sex-only competitions, there is a growing array of rules around hormone levels, what is acceptable and what is deemed an unfair advantage.

Women with elevated testosterone levels are over-represented in elite athletics groups, often caused by medical conditions like PCOS.

So, the question ends up looking like "what is 'woman enough' to compete in the female competitions?' and that's before the trans debate.

 

[HeliX]

16 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Well you say it’s blown out of all proportion but if you were a non trans women losing a race to a trans woman you may reasonably feel cheated.

If this transgender thing is such a trivial thing ( as say in the context of sport) why is it generating so much comment and angst?

( Sorry I can’t get rid of the picture of the individual above)

But the people you talk about losing a race to a trans woman number literally in the hundreds worldwide. It's ludicrous for it to be national level news, and the reason it's pushed as national level news is because it's the "acceptable" face of transphobia.

8 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

But surely to become an “elite” runner you would have to work your way up through the ranks beating trans people.

Or have I got that wrong? I don’t know much about how these things work.

All I know is that if someone has an unfair advantage, it’s not right

Michael Phelps has an unfair advantage due to his ridiculous wingspan - which he didn't earn, he was born with it. Sport is unfair. I don't think any of us are well placed to judge what is fair or not in terms of transgender people in sport, I'm happy to leave it to the regulating bodies. Whichever way they rule.

[0bserver]

Life is so much better when you just ignore the people Rowling is arguing with. 

They disappear when you starve them of attention.

[AcousticallyChallenged]

2 minutes ago, 0bserver said:

Life is so much better when you just ignore the people Rowling is arguing with. 

They disappear when you starve them of attention.

Because invisibility is really good for anyone is struggling.

'Don't ask, don't tell' has been fantastically successful, hasn't it?

Trans people kill themselves at enormous rates, not least because they feel like they're alone in their experience.

Male suicide rates are also significantly higher, because men feel they can't or shouldn't articulate their feelings, and that they should 'man up'.

[0bserver]

1 minute ago, AcousticallyChallenged said:

Because invisibility is really good for anyone is struggling.

'Don't ask, don't tell' has been fantastically successful, hasn't it?

Trans people kill themselves at enormous rates, not least because they feel like they're alone in their experience.

Male suicide rates are also significantly higher, because men feel they can't or shouldn't articulate their feelings, and that they should 'man up'.

The ones Rowling is arguing with are extremists. 

[AcousticallyChallenged]

3 minutes ago, 0bserver said:

The ones Rowling is arguing with are extremists. 

The Stonewall rioters were seen as extremists too, simply for wanting to live as a gay person without being arrested for it.

Trans people are simply wanting the right to exist in peace, without fear of violence, attack or denial of their human rights. They're not trying to deprive anyone else.

[The Voice of Reason]

1 minute ago, AcousticallyChallenged said:

No, my point was, that even in female-sex-only competitions, there is a growing array of rules around hormone levels, what is acceptable and what is deemed an unfair advantage.

Women with elevated testosterone levels are over-represented in elite athletics groups, often caused by medical conditions like PCOS.

So, the question ends up looking like "what is 'woman enough' to compete in the female competitions?' and that's before the trans debate.

 

OK thanks I haven’t a clue what PCOS is (there are too many acronyms flying about)

But if a “woman “ ( I apologize for using the term)was born with the usual bits then whatever testerone, hormone or PCOS she, (they) have is irrelevant when it comes to sporting activities. That is not an unnatural or unfair advantage.

But if you want to put stuff in your body to make you more male or female that’s fine. It may help you come to terms with becoming the gender/ sex (call it what you will) you want to be that’s fine.

But if it is used to either as a view to, or a by product of, to achieving sporting prowess that cannot be right.

 

[HeliX]

Just now, The Voice of Reason said:

But if a “woman “ ( I apologize for using the term)was born with the usual bits then whatever testerone, hormone or PCOS she, (they) have is irrelevant when it comes to sporting activities. That is not an unnatural or unfair advantage.

Er, you might want to talk to basically every sporting body about that because they all disagree.

[AcousticallyChallenged]

10 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

OK thanks I haven’t a clue what PCOS is (there are too many acronyms flying about)

But if a “woman “ ( I apologize for using the term)was born with the usual bits then whatever testerone, hormone or PCOS she, (they) have is irrelevant when it comes to sporting activities. That is not an unnatural or unfair advantage.

But if you want to put stuff in your body to make you more male or female that’s fine. It may help you come to terms with becoming the gender/ sex (call it what you will) you want to be that’s fine.

But if it is used to either as a view to, or a by product of, to achieving sporting prowess that cannot be right.

 

PCOS is polycystic ovary syndrome. One of the symptoms can be increased testosterone production.

Some sports bodies will argue that that testosterone being above 'normal' levels, enables an unfair advantage against other women without those elevated hormones. Testosterone increases your muscle mass, as well as improving your blood's oxygenation capacity, and changing your bone structure, amongst other things.

Elite female athletes have been excluded on the back of their levels being too high compared to 'normal' levels, thus conferring, in the eyes of sporting bodies, an unfair advantage.

Edit to add: This is purely talking about women who were born female. For clarity.

Edited July 6, 2022 by AcousticallyChallenged

[AcousticallyChallenged]

1 minute ago, Roxanne said:

I’m also quite sad that a woman who enchanted me so much by the written word can be such a dick in real life.

I think this also highlights why JK gets so much attention from the trans community for her remarks.

Many people have grown up over the last 20-30 years, enchanted by the magical world of Harry Potter, only for an author they loved so much to come out with the things she does.