JK Rowling Manx Flag Controversy

[Newsdesk]

5 minutes ago, HeliX said:

But the moment they do anything illegal it's irrelevant. 

Oh yes let’s put people in potential danger and then deal with the issue when something illegal happens. That makes sense. 

Edited July 7, 2022 by Newsdesk

[HeliX]

3 minutes ago, Newsdesk said:

Oh yes let’s put people in danger and then deal with the issue when something illegal happens. That makes sense. 

But if someone's going to do something illegal it makes no difference what they claim to be or what the sign on the door is.

Interestingly, it seems to be men who object to trans women in women's changing rooms, not women...

EDIT: Source: https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/ai3h3xvf7o/Transgender data 2020.pdf

Edited July 7, 2022 by HeliX

[AcousticallyChallenged]

14 minutes ago, Newsdesk said:

The benefit is that they get to exert control over women by legally being able to share their space. A form of intimidation. As I said the main issue from the woman’s perspective seems to be self identification. If someone is on a hormone regime and a formal mental health pathway then likely there would be no issue. But as it stands with self identification you could technically put on a wig and a dress and self identify to get access to spaces that are exclusively for women. 

So what counts as trans enough to be palatable in those spaces?

HRT? An orchiectomy? A penectomy? A vaginoplasty? A boob job?

To get a gender recongition certificate in the UK, you have to convince a board of executives that you have had what they deem to be the 'correct amount of surgery'. There is no formal definition of that though.

[Newsdesk]

2 minutes ago, HeliX said:

But if someone's going to do something illegal it makes no difference what they claim to be or what the sign on the door is.

Interestingly, it seems to be men who object to trans women in women's changing rooms, not women...

EDIT: Source: https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/ai3h3xvf7o/Transgender data 2020.pdf

That’s irrelevant really. You seem to have little concept that some of the concerns of women are valid based on a whole life experience of dealing with men. And as I’ve said the main issue seems to be with self identification not people on genuine medical pathways to transition. For as long as some predator can potentially put on a wig and have legally enforced access female safe spaces then you’re always going to get this sort of debate because many women have spent their whole lives trying to protect themselves from predatory males. 

[hissingsid]

Rowling had no right to use the Manx Flag on her Twitter feed regardless of her views.    So back on topic 🥵.

[Newsdesk]

5 minutes ago, AcousticallyChallenged said:

To get a gender recongition certificate in the UK, you have to convince a board of executives that you have had what they deem to be the 'correct amount of surgery'.

That is literally rubbish

https://www.ngalaw.co.uk/knowledge-centre/gender-recognition-certificates

You do not have to have taken any stops at all surgically. Other than confirm you’ve been diagnosed with gender dysphoria. Which some could probably fake easily.  

Edited July 7, 2022 by Newsdesk

[AcousticallyChallenged]

12 minutes ago, Newsdesk said:

Oh yes let’s put people in potential danger and then deal with the issue when something illegal happens. That makes sense. 

By denying trans people the access to safe spaces, you are putting them more at risk. Whose safety has more value?

Do we look at it as an absolute, in that no trans person should be allowed the opportunity to harm women? In that case, the deduction is that their lives are viewed to have less worth, as we'd by extent be putting the trans people at a demonstrably increased risk of harm.

1 minute ago, Newsdesk said:

That’s irrelevant really. You seem to have little concept that some of the concerns of women are valid based on a whole life experience of dealing with men. And as I’ve said the main issue seems to be with self identification not people on genuine medical pathways to transition. For as long as some predator can potentially put on a wig and have legally enforced access female safe spaces then you’re always going to get this sort of debate because many women have spent their whole lives trying to protect themselves from predatory males. 

The 'man dresses in frock to attack women' is the regurgitated argument to deny trans women rights. Have we any examples of this claimed self identification leading to harm? The only example I can see is Karen White, and you'd expect a known violent offender to be segregated anyway. Surely that's a failing on the prison's part.

 

[HeliX]

6 minutes ago, Newsdesk said:

That’s irrelevant really. You seem to have little concept that some of the concerns of women are valid based on a whole life experience of dealing with men. And as I’ve said the main issue seems to be with self identification not people on genuine medical pathways to transition. For as long as some predator can potentially put on a wig and have legally enforced access female safe spaces then you’re always going to get this sort of debate because many women have spent their whole lives trying to protect themselves from predatory males. 

Plenty of men can do that without anything to do with trans though. And would be allowed into women's bathrooms if they "passed" as women, regardless of anything to do with trans.

[HeliX]

5 minutes ago, Newsdesk said:

That is literally rubbish

https://www.ngalaw.co.uk/knowledge-centre/gender-recognition-certificates

You do not have to have taken any stops at all surgically. Other than confirm you’ve been diagnosed with gender dysphoria. Which some could probably fake easily.  

Not all trans people have dysphoria, and it's quite a serious thing to diagnose, so not easily faked no.

[Newsdesk]

Just now, AcousticallyChallenged said:

Do we look at it as an absolute, in that no trans person should be allowed the opportunity to harm women? 

Yes absolutely because women grow up from day one with a sense of potentially being sexually harmed by men. Go back and read what I have posted not what you have made up about what I have posted which is frankly nonsense. Equally it happens on the other side. Does it make sense to put this person in a male prison where they’ll probably come out of a 2 year stretch with an arse like a clowns pocket?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-34984635

That’s a a little bit more than self identifying. The main concern is regarding the whole concept of self identification which seems to be flawed and which seems to be the main concern of women (not men). 

[AcousticallyChallenged]

2 minutes ago, Newsdesk said:

That is literally rubbish

https://www.ngalaw.co.uk/knowledge-centre/gender-recognition-certificates

Yiu do not have to have taken any stops at all surgically or in terms of therapy. 

Ask a trans person about the proof they are asked to offer.

From a friend who managed to get granted hers, she had to supply, on top of the two medical reports, electoral roll letters, drivers license, NHS registration letters, work contracts etc:

Evidence of electrolysis and laser hair removal consultations, prescription slips, and surgical reports.

You have to convince a medical and non-medical professional that you are indeed 'trans enough'

 

[Newsdesk]

1 minute ago, AcousticallyChallenged said:

Ask a trans person about the proof they are asked to offer.

That’s a guidance note from a UK law practice specializing in the area. So I don’t have to.

[AcousticallyChallenged]

2 minutes ago, Newsdesk said:

Yes absolutely because women grow up from day one with a sense of potentially being sexually harmed by men. Go back and read what I have posted not what you have made up about what I have posted which is frankly nonsense. Equally it happens on the other side. Does it make sense to put this person in a male prison where they’ll probably come out of a 2 year stretch with an arse like a clowns pocket?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-34984635

That’s a a little bit more than self identifying. The main concern is regarding the whole concept of self identification which seems to be flawed and which seems to be the main concern of women (not men). 

Self-identification has to be an option, because waiting for a gender clinic referral can take 4 years or more, just for a triage appointment.

The GIC in the UK is currently offering initial appointments to people who joined the waiting list in 2018. There are currently 11,293 on the waiting list, with 56 new appointments a month being offered.

https://gic.nhs.uk/appointments/waiting-times/

[AcousticallyChallenged]

1 minute ago, Newsdesk said:

That’s a guidance note from a UK law practice specializing in the area. So I don’t have to.

Even with that taken at face value, that's 2 years from a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, which in itself takes >4 years at present via the GIC.

So you're expecting people to wait 6 years suffering because it hath been decreed?

[HeliX]

OK, let's say you ban trans women from women's changing rooms.

Now what? How are you going to police it? The fake trans people you're concerned about can still just make themselves look suitably female and go into the changing room. There are too many androgynous men and butch women to effectively police it without checking people's genitals as they enter. Which I don't think is an improvement.

All it would do is make trans people less safe, not make women safer.