JK Rowling Manx Flag Controversy

[AcousticallyChallenged]

4 minutes ago, quilp said:

When it can give birth, self-lubricate, not have a dead-end nor require continuous dilation therapy and usually a daily lavage to prevent infection, especially when sexually active.

That would be real enough. Obviously a real vagina can be one thing only; an essential component of a reproductive system only to be found within the body of a female human, by definition, as nature biologically intended. Anything else just isn't, cannot be, classed as a vagina.

 

So a woman who is sterile doesn't have a vagina by your definition.

Nor one who has issues with vaginal dryness.

Nor one who has had a hysterectomy.

Nor one born with cervical agenesis.

Should they be kept out of the ladies' loos too then?

[AcousticallyChallenged]

Of course, the claim that all men are men and all women are women because chromosomes is also not as clear cut as it sounds.

https://isna.org/faq/y_chromosome/

Quote

It is true that in typical male development, the SRY gene on the tip of the Y chromosome helps to send the embryo down the masculine pathway. But more than the SRY is needed for sex determination and differentiation; for example, women with CAIS have the SRY gene but lack androgen receptors. In terms of hormone effects on their bodies (including their brains), women with CAIS have had much less “masculinization” than the average 46,XX woman because their cells do not respond to androgens.

Moreover, the SRY gene can be translocated onto an X chromosome (so that a 46,XX person may develop along a typical masculine pathway), and there are dozens of genes on chromosomes other than the X and the Y that contribute to sexual differentiation. And beyond the genes, a person’s sex development can be significantly influenced by environmental factors (including the maternal uterine environment in which the fetus developed).

So it is simply incorrect to think that you can tell a person’s sex just looking at whether he or she has a Y chromosome.

...

So now we have genes on the Y that can turn females with XX chromosomes into males and genes on the X that can turn males with XY chromosomes into females. . . wow! Maleness and femaleness are NOT determined by having an X or a Y, since switching a couple of genes around can turn things upside down.

In fact, there’s a whole lot more to maleness and femaleness than X or Y chromosomes. About 1 in 20,000 men has no Y chromosome, instead having 2 Xs. This means that in the United States there are about 7,500 men without a Y chromosome. The equivalent situation – females who have XY instead of XX chromosomes – can occur for a variety of reasons and overall is similar in frequency.

 

[AcousticallyChallenged]

14 minutes ago, hampsterkahn said:

As father, I would have been very concerned to wait whilst my young daughter entered  a public toilet ( where as a “male” I would not have been be permitted to enter) to be followed in  by someone  who - for whatever reason,  claimed they had a perfect right to be there, but by their appearance and demeanor would have very probably caused her distress and - and fear.

Men/ young boys; women/ young girls have a basic right to the access the appropriately designated facilities without feeling in any way intimated or uncomfortable.

You can absolutely bet that the vast majority of trans people will do everything within their power to avoid such situations. There is actually scientific literature describing the health impacts trans people experience as a result of this.

8% of the trans community in the US in a year reported a kidney or urinary tract infection, or other kidney issues that can be attributed to excessively holding urine. 31% avoided eating or drinking, to avoid having to use a public convenience. 59% reported avoiding public bathrooms for fear of confrontation.

That was out of 28,000 adult participants in the survey.

[HeliX]

21 minutes ago, hampsterkahn said:

A fact of life is that women / female sex  (or whatever term is currently in use)  do, by dint of anatomy and physiology etc.m do  have more frequent need of such facilities.Unless they have trained bladder and other muscular tone to levels to produce an unusual trajectory, they sit down - rather than pee against the porcelain whilst standing.This means removal of more clothing and increases the  feeling of vulnerabilty.

They have individually locking doors for that bit you know.

[Hoops]

11 minutes ago, AcousticallyChallenged said:

We've been over how that's not as clear cut as you seem to think.

well, not if you consider the biological definition to be about primary sexual organs and the distinct type of gametes an organism produces.

I understand some researchers believe their are differences in the brains of men and transwomen, there may well be. And some people have secondary sexual organs. But the biological definition is as I stated above.

[AcousticallyChallenged]

Just now, Hoops said:

well, not if you consider the biological definition to be about primary sexual organs and the distinct type of gametes an organism produces.

I understand some researchers believe their are differences in the brains of men and transwomen, there may well be. And some people have secondary sexual organs. But the biological definition is as I stated above.

The brain differences are not just believed, they have been provably demonstrated in MRI machines.

You can find the papers on it.

[quilp]

1 hour ago, AcousticallyChallenged said:

So a woman who is sterile doesn't have a vagina by your definition.

Nor one who has issues with vaginal dryness.

Nor one who has had a hysterectomy.

Nor one born with cervical agenesis.

Should they be kept out of the ladies' loos too then?

That's not what I meant and well you know it. Of course, all that abstraction you've posted is the unfortunate preserve of real women, reinforcing the sexual differences which makes your last sentence complete bollocks. I never mentioned anything about toilets, ladies, gents or otherwise, you did. Your response is really just an underhanded, vague and feeble re-direct intended to cast a negative aspersion, completely unconnected to that which I posted.

[wrighty]

Some interesting points raised in the last few pages, without too much name calling. Well done chaps (can I say that?)

Leads me to thinking about whose rights take priority. Similar to the ‘Christian homophobe guest home proprietor’ vs ‘Gay men wishing to rent a room’ scenario that crops up from time to time. Does a trans-woman’s right to take refuge in a woman only space trump an abused cis-woman’s right to feel safe only whenever there are no Y-chromosomal characteristics in plain sight?

[Hoops]

On 7/6/2022 at 7:46 PM, AcousticallyChallenged said:

 

Nowhere does it say whether the perpetrators were identifying as male or female.

Bear in mind that, per gov.uk, the overall average is 49% of prisoners are sentenced for violent or sexual crimes. Based on your cited FOI request, the figure for trans people is 45%. Of course, the figure for trans people could still be artificially high. As the FOI request states, there is a bias in the data towards those with longer, therefore, likely more serious, sentences.

Now, let's look at the figures in some more depth. 63 people out of 200,000 to 500,000 estimated trans people in the UK convicted for sexual offences. Or, 0.0315% of the trans population, assuming the lower end of the above range. 0.0126% if we go for the upper bound.

Now, compare that to 136,000 approx sexual offences in the year ending March 2020. That works out as roughly 0.25% of the UK's population. Assuming one offence per person.

So we can actually ascertain, loosely, that amongst the trans population, perpetration of sexual offences is actually an order of magnitude lower.

The argument that someone will go to all the effort of transitioning with the view to committing an offence is ludicrous at best, it essentially stipulates the belief that any transgender person could be a sex pest in a frock.

Are you familiar with the mountain of emotional, physical, bureaucratic, medical and often, surgical, difficulty involved in a transition? It is not in anyway as simple as one day declaring you identify differently. That is only really step 1.

Sorry to be pedantic, but I want to have a look at how you came to the conclusion that perpetration of sexual offences by trans people is actually 'an order of magnitude lower' then by non-trans people.

The figure I gave was to highlight the danger of transwomen prisoners being admitted into women's wings of a prison. That was my only point, it wasn't to stigmatise trans people. 

First of all, the figure of 63 people was a snapshot of when the foi request was made, not the figure for the whole year. There may be a lot of variance in that figure, either way.

Secondly, you assume 1 crime for inmate, when i stated they were convicted of 111 crimes of that nature.

Thirdly, you assume every crime of a sexual nature is going to lead imprisonment. However much we may wish it, this simply isn't true. We know that full well over here.

Lastly, probably most importantly, with last years clear up rate of sexual offences  being 2.9%

Attaching that figure to the 136000 crimes you state, gives us a figure of 3944 solved sexual offences, which should give everyone pause for thought. Of those, how many were imprisoned, I have no idea. But your maths are clearly flawed. 

 

[AcousticallyChallenged]

4 hours ago, quilp said:

That's not what I meant and well you know it. Of course, all that abstraction you've posted is the unfortunate preserve of real women, reinforcing the sexual differences which makes your last sentence complete bollocks. I never mentioned anything about toilets, ladies, gents or otherwise, you did. Your response is really just an underhanded, vague and feeble re-direct intended to cast a negative aspersion, completely unconnected to that which I posted.

To go back to JK Rowling, one of her tweets in the past was complaining about the term “people who menstruate”. And that there used to be a term for that. (Women). 

There was backlash from cisgender women for that one because, it was exclusionary both to trans men and cisgender women who no longer do. 

I still find it fascinating that it’s generally men who are so deeply concerned with the state of other individuals genitalia and chromosomes though. 

[AcousticallyChallenged]

26 minutes ago, Hoops said:

Sorry to be pedantic, but I want to have a look at how you came to the conclusion that perpetration of sexual offences by trans people is actually 'an order of magnitude lower' then by non-trans people.

The figure I gave was to highlight the danger of transwomen prisoners being admitted into women's wings of a prison. That was my only point, it wasn't to stigmatise trans people. 

First of all, the figure of 63 people was a snapshot of when the foi request was made, not the figure for the whole year. There may be a lot of variance in that figure, either way.

Secondly, you assume 1 crime for inmate, when i stated they were convicted of 111 crimes of that nature.

Thirdly, you assume every crime of a sexual nature is going to lead imprisonment. However much we may wish it, this simply isn't true. We know that full well over here.

Lastly, probably most importantly, with last years clear up rate of sexual offences  being 2.9%

Attaching that figure to the 136000 crimes you state, gives us a figure of 3944 solved sexual offences, which should give everyone pause for thought. Of those, how many were imprisoned, I have no idea. But your maths are clearly flawed. 

 

Okay, fair enough. It was a quick back of an envelope calculation. 

Let’s look at the figures for currently incarcerated offenders. 

There are 79,773 people presently in prison per gov.uk. Of that, 18% were convicted of sexual offences.

So, that gives us a baseline figure of the number of people imprisoned for sexual offences as 14359, or 1 in 4527 of the population as a whole, assuming a population of 65 million  

So, taking that 63 figure, and comparing that to trans population estimates of up to around 500,000 that gives 1 in 7936.

Dropping that down to the middle end of the trans population estimate, we get 1 in 5555. 

It’s only if you drop the population estimate right down that it falls in line with the figures for the population as a whole. Plus, the impact of each offender on the figures rises as your population estimate drops. 

 

[AcousticallyChallenged]

2 minutes ago, offshoremanxman said:

That seems to be their stock response to everything in this thread. 

And some, 19 pages in seem dreadfully confused about the whole matter still. 

How would you react if your child came out as trans and wanted access to safe spaces?

[The Voice of Reason]

8 hours ago, hampsterkahn said:

This is a very confusing topic for me-

1.I just don’t see where the Manx flag- or any flag,comes into this?

2.The public toilet issue - I use one very infrequently.I find then smelly and rather unpleasant- but useful if needed for the sole purpose of peeing and pooing.

Thankfully, I have never been “approached”  by anyone in a toilet.The prospect would be a further deterrent for me using one, even to the point risking of bladder complications.

A fact of life is that women / female sex  (or whatever term is currently in use)  do, by dint of anatomy and physiology etc.m do  have more frequent need of such facilities.Unless they have trained bladder and other muscular tone to levels to produce an unusual trajectory, they sit down - rather than pee against the porcelain whilst standing.This means removal of more clothing and increases the  feeling of vulnerabilty.

They should be be able to use these facilities confidently  without even the briefest second thought about it -and not feel in any way uncomfortable.

As father, I would have been very concerned to wait whilst my young daughter entered  a public toilet ( where as a “male” I would not have been be permitted to enter) to be followed in  by someone  who - for whatever reason,  claimed they had a perfect right to be there, but by their appearance and demeanor would have very probably caused her distress and - and fear.

Men/ young boys; women/ young girls have a basic right to the access the appropriately designated facilities without feeling in any way intimidated or uncomfortable.

That’s a very good point you make about your young daughter using a public toilet  being followed in by what may look like a bloke in a dress ( however innocent they may be)

Its about balancing rights, your daughters rights to not feel uncomfortable or intimidated ( and your own right not to feel concerned) , and that of the trans person.

On balance my view would be that your daughter’s rights take preference whilst recognizing that this may impact negatively on the rights of the trans person.

Unfortunately in society these trade offs sometimes have to be made. 

[AcousticallyChallenged]

Just now, offshoremanxman said:

I would point out that safe spaces apply both ways and that in 5 or 6 years time they would probably have first hand experience of how vulnerable to sexual violence women are in a patriarchal society and they might understand some women's views on the subject better then through learned life experience in that gender role. 

So you would rather that they too are put at a demonstrably higher risk of violence and sexual violence then? 

At least you’re consistent I suppose. 

[Hoops]

31 minutes ago, AcousticallyChallenged said:

Okay, fair enough. It was a quick back of an envelope calculation. 

Let’s look at the figures for currently incarcerated offenders. 

There are 79,773 people presently in prison per gov.uk. Of that, 18% were convicted of sexual offences.

So, that gives us a baseline figure of the number of people imprisoned for sexual offences as 14359, or 1 in 4527 of the population as a whole, assuming a population of 65 million  

So, taking that 63 figure, and comparing that to trans population estimates of up to around 500,000 that gives 1 in 7936.

Dropping that down to the middle end of the trans population estimate, we get 1 in 5555. 

It’s only if you drop the population estimate right down that it falls in line with the figures for the population as a whole. Plus, the impact of each offender on the figures rises as your population estimate drops. 

 

We have no idea how many transgender prisoners are currently in prison for sexual offences.