JK Rowling Manx Flag Controversy

[Newsdesk]

17 hours ago, quilp said:

I never mentioned anything about toilets, ladies, gents or otherwise, you did. Your response is really just an underhanded, vague and feeble re-direct intended to cast a negative aspersion, completely unconnected to that which I posted.

Agree nobody seems to have mentioned toilets other than underhanded comments to try to shift the focus elsewhere. You can’t really debate with many people on that side of the debate. It’s all so one sided and you can very easily see how people like JK Rowling can take that binary argument as an attack on all that for generations women have fought for. There is no attempt to see any other side of debate just for them to make the life they have envisaged reality. It’s a shame the same thing has taken women about 2,000 years to get closer to.

[AcousticallyChallenged]

5 minutes ago, Newsdesk said:

Agree nobody seems to have mentioned toilets other than underhanded comments to try to shift the focus elsewhere. You can’t really debate with many people on that side of the debate. It’s all so one sided and you can very easily see how people like JK Rowling can take that binary argument as an attack on all that for generations women have fought for. There is no attempt to see any other side of debate just for them to make the life they have envisaged reality. It’s a shame the same thing has taken women about 2,000 years to get closer to.

You’d be surprised at how long gender hasn’t been a binary thing. 

Even the ancient Mesopotamians wrote about it. The Romans too. One Roman emperor sought after sexual reassignment surgery, offering vast sums to any physician who could give them a vagina and lived as a woman about 1800 years ago.

 

 

[Newsdesk]

4 minutes ago, AcousticallyChallenged said:

You’d be surprised at how long gender hasn’t been a binary thing. 

Even the ancient Mesopotamians wrote about it. The Romans too. One Roman emperor sought after sexual reassignment surgery, offering vast sums to any physician who could give them a vagina and lived as a woman about 1800 years ago.

You seem to be like the bad genie in this thread. Popping up instantly anyone expresses a contrary opinion. Under 15 minutes. Impressive. 

[AcousticallyChallenged]

3 minutes ago, Newsdesk said:

You seem to be like the bad genie in this thread. Popping up instantly anyone expresses a contrary opinion. Under 15 minutes. Impressive. 

Good grammar. Well done. 

So, is also joining the club where discourse cannot happen and instead you just call people names? 

Bad genie sounds pretty cool though. That’d definitely be my biker gang name. 

[Hoops]

11 hours ago, AcousticallyChallenged said:

Well. We can find out that on 30th April 2021, there were 197 transgender people in prison in total. Out of total offenders being 77416  

If we assume the same distribution, then 18% were in for sexual offences. Leaving us with a figure of 35. 

So, back to the grind. 

So, overall 1 in 4852 of UK population imprisoned for sexual offences. 

Assume the lowest trans population estimate of 200k, we get 1 in 5714 trans people in prison at that time for those offences. Assume 500k population and we get 1 in 14286. 

Again, you are being disingenuous. As I said, we have no idea how many trans prisoners are locked up for offences of a sexual nature, You suggest it will be 18% of the total, but in the only figure we actually know (Which is why I use it), the percentage of trans prisoners in for sex crimes was 45%. 

Earlier in the thread you inferred that trans people could be safely allowed into women's safe spaces, as opposed to other biological men, as they were much less of a threat to women. The figures available simply do not back that assertion up.

We know, statistically, trans prisoners placed in a woman's prison are more of a threat to women then non-trans prisoners. Yes, this is a failure of the prison service. But then, so is any assault of a trans prisoner in the men's wing. Why is the risk of one seemingly more acceptable then the other?

Within transgenderism there will be a number of different drivers for different people. No one can convince me that the bastard we are now supposed to call karen white feels that they were born in the wrong body. The motive for them turning transgender may well be sexual - autogynephilic maybe. The fact that they were put in a women's prison is beyond belief. 

 

[AcousticallyChallenged]

Re: disingenuity, a couple of things make any calculation more difficult. The prison service does not collect or publish data on any prisoners with a Gender Recognition Certificate. Plus, the FOI request you keep citing states the following:

Quote

The number of transgender prisoners has increased since the collection began, suggesting that recording is improving. However, estimates are likely to be an undercount of the true number and location of transgender prisoners in the prison estate.

We expect that prisoners on longer sentences are more likely to be managed as a transgender prisoner than those on shorter sentences.

So, how do you account for the under-representation in the figures, that the source itself suggests.

30 minutes ago, Hoops said:

We know, statistically, trans prisoners placed in a woman's prison are more of a threat to women then non-trans prisoners. Yes, this is a failure of the prison service. But then, so is any assault of a trans prisoner in the men's wing. Why is the risk of one seemingly more acceptable then the other?

That's the thing, the facilities for the safety of those trans people don't necessarily exist. They absolutely should, but they don't.

One mitigation that is often used in prisons in some parts of the world is to put trans people in solitary confinement for their own protection. But, that is hardly rehabilitation for a non-violent offender.

So what in the end does the least harm?

Do we look at absolute or relative and say that the protection of one is more important than the protection of the other?

Re: Karen White, that prisoner should absolutely not have had access to other prisoners, given their offending history. That was a fundamental failing. If you read the Guardian article describing the situation, even a representative from the local trans rights group described Karen in the following terms.

Quote

“When I met her she was at the beginning of her transition. But I felt that she was someone who didn’t listen to any advice.

“She seemed like somebody who was very much going to plough her own furrow regardless of the community advice, and she was going to demand her rights. She insisted people referred to her in her acquired gender without trying terribly hard to present as a woman.

“She would report people for a hate crime if they stumbled over which name to use for her – it was not a way to get yourself absorbed into the community. She was a person who would not compromise.”

Bishop said that over the years she had met thousands of trans people but White stood out. “I did feel she was someone not to mess with. Other members of the community said she had a very short temper. I did get the impression that she needed to go on an anger management course,” she added.

Now, if self-identification was guided by medical and psychological practice, that would be plausible only if access to those was viable for trans people. Currently, the Gender Identity Clinic is issuing 50-odd new appointments a month, and they are offering first appointments to people who joined the waiting list in early 2018. https://gic.nhs.uk/appointments/waiting-times/

[Hoops]

21 minutes ago, AcousticallyChallenged said:

Re: disingenuity, a couple of things make any calculation more difficult. The prison service does not collect or publish data on any prisoners with a Gender Recognition Certificate. Plus, the FOI request you keep citing states the following:

So, how do you account for the under-representation in the figures, that the source itself suggests.

That's the thing, the facilities for the safety of those trans people don't necessarily exist. They absolutely should, but they don't.

One mitigation that is often used in prisons in some parts of the world is to put trans people in solitary confinement for their own protection. But, that is hardly rehabilitation for a non-violent offender.

So what in the end does the least harm?

Do we look at absolute or relative and say that the protection of one is more important than the protection of the other?

Re: Karen White, that prisoner should absolutely not have had access to other prisoners, given their offending history. That was a fundamental failing. If you read the Guardian article describing the situation, even a representative from the local trans rights group described Karen in the following terms.

Now, if self-identification was guided by medical and psychological practice, that would be plausible only if access to those was viable for trans people. Currently, the Gender Identity Clinic is issuing 50-odd new appointments a month, and they are offering first appointments to people who joined the waiting list in early 2018. https://gic.nhs.uk/appointments/waiting-times/

I do wonder if the prison service is using it's adherence to equality protocols, for want of a better description, and placing transwomen in women's prisons to partly get out of building/sorting out the facilities it needs. 

[Hoops]

2 hours ago, hampsterkahn said:

Nope, still don’t get it - I get lost after the three legs 

sleeping beauty problem ? 

I ‘m just thick and live in a different world.

You're not alone. I think he just strung some random words together.

[AcousticallyChallenged]

1 minute ago, Hoops said:

I do wonder if the prison service is using it's adherence to equality protocols, for want of a better description, and placing transwomen in women's prisons to partly get out of building/sorting out the facilities it needs. 

I think in general, the prison system is broken anyway. People coming out and reoffending simply return to the same cycles. That's why private prisons do so well in the US.

In general, I think that some of the trans problems could be solved by offering appropriate medical interventions where appropriate, and timely access to those.

But, it's far cheaper and easier to try and brush the problem under the carpet and make it worse for everyone, both cis and trans, who are impacted by the issue.

[The Voice of Reason]

22 hours ago, HeliX said:

Banning trans women from the bathroom doesn't remove that risk for cis women.

Also even small parts of the population are entitled to rights.

Not sure your avatar Gene Hunt would agree with what you are opining on in this issue!

But then that’s a bit Piers Morgan, Mick Lynch ( The Hood) sort of thing.

[HeliX]

51 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Not sure your avatar Gene Hunt would agree with what you are opining on in this issue!

But then that’s a bit Piers Morgan, Mick Lynch ( The Hood) sort of thing.

He was a caricature of a drunk, corrupt arsehole in the 70s and 80s. So yes, probably not.

Cracking character in a good show though.

[hissingsid]

Despite all the to-ing and fro-ing with toilets, pantomime characters and all that jazz the question was should Rowling have involved our Nations flag…answer is NO and by the very fact she did makes her, in my book, a very ignorant, stupid, disrespectful piece of work and should have the decency to apologise for it.

[hampsterkahn]

Am I dementing?  - or am I a sort of bemused Rip Van Winkle awaking  from another century ?  or have I been living in a parallel universe ?

Whatever the cause, I really have no idea what people on here are talking about!

The explanations offered in response to my genuine requests  for help,  talk of “sleeping beauty” and “thirds”

If I am going to even begin try to understand this topic,I I must start with the basics, please.

 

Edited July 9, 2022 by hampsterkahn

[Hoops]

3 hours ago, AcousticallyChallenged said:

I think in general, the prison system is broken anyway. People coming out and reoffending simply return to the same cycles. That's why private prisons do so well in the US.

In general, I think that some of the trans problems could be solved by offering appropriate medical interventions where appropriate, and timely access to those.

But, it's far cheaper and easier to try and brush the problem under the carpet and make it worse for everyone, both cis and trans, who are impacted by the issue.

hooray, we've agreed on something! I will probably leave this thread alone now, it's been an interesting debate, we'll agree to disagree on a lot and I've learnt some things, but when you start researching some of the issues, on the sexual offences side, it's so profoundly depressing that I won't continue.

[Chie]

On 7/7/2022 at 8:13 PM, Hoops said:

sorry, i was identifying as david ashford for a bit there.

First thing, full respect for your last paragraph.

As for the 'woke' tag, 'gammon', 'snowflake' etc etc, they add nothing to a debate.

I do feel you are being a bit disingenuous when you refer solely to toilets in terms of trans people in women's spaces

I talked about women's wings in prisons, Karen White among others, and the judge's statement I quoted. There was also the awful case of the woman allegedly raped in the woman's ward of a hospital, and the disgraceful response to that. All rapes are carried out by biological men, most trans women are biological men. We are now giving biological men a degree of access to areas where vulnerable women are, which they didn't have before.

I could go on, but it's all been said. Now, I get why it is dangerous for trans women to be put in the men's ward of a prison or hospital, so I would say the solution has to be separate  wings and wards for trans people.

The public toilets issue is difficult, believe it or not I see both points of view. First of all, we have too few public toilets anyway, so a push to build more single occupant facilities might be a solution, and public loo's with attendants would help alleviate a number of issues.

 

Sadly, the tags are necessary. It is the only language that some of those who are arguing understand. There is an ever increasing number of individuals who have heard, for example, the term "woke" in an increasingly negative light and have allowed themselves to become engulfed in so much fear and anguish without ever knowing truly what the argument is actually about. My own father is a prime example of this kind of person. "The wokes are this, the wokes are that, the WOKES ARE COMING". Yet not really understanding anything about what the argument actually is. It is the only way to communicate with them when they start. You have to use the terms to be able to start deconstructing the fear and misinformation surrounding these terms. It isn't "woke" people that are the issue. It's those on the far right and far left who want the extreme of everything. If you get what I mean.

When I referred to toilets I am actually referring to what is being called "The Toilet Wars". It's apparently become a catch all description of the issue at hand. The toilet issue is a large part of that debate but it extends into other areas also such as washrooms, changing rooms, showers etc. The issue of trans women in women spaces is the core of the argument so there is obviously going to be a heavy focus on that element.

As for the prison issue. Yes, there are a handful of cases as there are in other areas that are being discussed. However, we have to be careful to find the correct balance / solution. Leaving actual trans women (not those just stating it to gain access which again is only a handful of cases) in male only areas in a prison will be a death sentence in most prisons around the world. It is this end of the solution that most gender critics are campaigning for. I do think there should be more scrutiny applied in the case of prisons. Maybe those who identify as transgender are moved into a separate area with other trans people for a while until such a point as their transition is seen as a serious move, aka hormones, therapy, the usual crap we have to go through and THEN they are moved onto the female wing maybe. One thing is for sure things can't stay the way they are but finding the right solution has to be key.

As for the hospital case. I wouldn't buy too much into that. The person who made the claim is a well known outspoken gender critic and as far as I know no arrests have actually taken place. It is generally thought that this person was on the ward with a trans women and decided to make the claim given their own prejudice. No arrests (quickly checked) have been made after the police investigation so we have to determine that no crime has taken place. And trust me, if a crime had taken place and the police had found evidence, it wouldn't have mattered whether the person was transgender or not they would have been arrested and prosecuted and the gender critics would have paraded this all across the universe.

On the whole issue revolving around this idea that trans people have been raping. It really is a handful of cases. Not to take anything away from those cases as they are horrific and the people involved should be locked up for the rest of their lives. But, it is no different than in any other area of life. If we applied this same logic to the rest of the population it would go as follows;

Some men rape so therefore all men are rapists.

Some women sex offender so therefore all women are sex offenders.

The logic doesn't make sense. Try saying that to a gender critic and you get called a misogynist, which is hilarious in the case of a trans woman as i'm pretty sure the last thing in the world they hate is women. Especially when you do the search I suggested in my previous post and you see that it is 99.99999999% cis het male men who are invading female bathrooms and doing the actual raping. No pretending to be trans, a sign on the door not stopping them, they are going to rape and nothing is getting in their way. And, I am not saying that there aren't some trans people who do this. There are, but, it's a handful. Statistically cis women are more at risk from cis men and other cis women in a bathroom, changing room or shower than they are a trans woman.

To be honest. The whole thing is just stupid and neither side are willing to actually sit down and just talk about it. A lot of fears could probably be laid to rest if both sides just chilled out a bit and listened to each other. Sadly, that's not the case. Its one side screaming and the other screaming back.