JK Rowling Manx Flag Controversy

[Bandits]

2 hours ago, AcousticallyChallenged said:

Understandably, the people who are trying to deny other people’s existence do get jumped on a bit by those who just want to get on with their existence.

If you tried in the modern day to say gay people shouldn’t exist, you’d probably not go down too well either with a lot of people. 

It’s also used as a headline to take attention off of more important things like blundering into another recession and the shitshow that has been brexit. It gets people riled up and voting Tory by playing on their misunderstandings and preconceptions. 

So so smug and condescending. And further reinforcement of what I actually said. If you express a view that doesn’t comply the bullying and ridiculous accusations start soon enough.

[AcousticallyChallenged]

6 minutes ago, Bandits said:

So so smug and condescending. And further reinforcement of what I actually said. If you express a view that doesn’t comply the bullying and ridiculous accusations start soon enough.

What accusations? What bullying?

There genuinely are people campaigning that transgender people shouldn’t have the right to, or don’t medically, exist.

Also, as an aside, everyone is entitled to an opinion and beliefs, but, those can be silly, harmful, damaging or outright illegal. What would you say to someone trying to convince you the Earth is flat?

[Bandits]

13 minutes ago, AcousticallyChallenged said:

What would you say to someone trying to convince you the Earth is flat?

I’d listen to them and then rationally explain why I believe it isn’t. But it seems from the above reply to Flyingfemme that people can’t even rationally explain their perspective without being attacked so it’s pointless. 

[The Voice of Reason]

4 hours ago, John Wright said:

You’ve missed that some people are trans. The have gender dysphoria. Their body doesn’t match what their mind says they are gender wise.

It seems impossible to treat with psychiatric or psychological treatment. Just like homosexuality. So, do you let those people suffer, huge self harm and suicide rates reported, or do you surgically intervene so that external physical attributes more nearly fit what the mind expects.

And for most the surgery doesn’t go the fullest hog, breast reduction for ftm, but no bottom surgery, etc. Most ftm people I know are happy with the degree of growth testosterone gives their clitoris and don’t go for phalloplasty.

Then there’s body dysmorphia. That’s when you don’t like the appearance of external attributes. So compulsive plastic surgery, penis expansion/enhancement. Often the physical results still aren’t acceptable. Psychological and psychiatric treatment appears a better option.

Of course there may be an overlay, and there’s no explanation as to why the number presenting with dysphoria has increased so much from 100-200 a year a decade ago to nearly 3,000 now.

Re your second paragraph why would you want to “treat “ homosexuality with “psychiatric or psychological treatment.” From the (very admittedly few) homosexuals I know none of them would like surgical intervention. To do what?
 

Re the increased number of people now presenting with body dysmorphia, I know I will probably get crucified for this but maybe it’s because it has become more talked about and people who would otherwise not have considered it think “oh maybe that’s what I need”

In the same way that previously you had a few autistic children now it seems every mother is claiming their child has it for whatever reason ( bad behavior) etc. 

Obviously both conditions, autism and body dysmorphia are real but once things become more in the public domain with chat shows etc it seems the more people think that maybe that is what they have.

I await a barrage of criticism

[AcousticallyChallenged]

6 minutes ago, Bandits said:

I’d listen to them and then rationally explain why I believe it isn’t. But it seems from the above reply to Flyingfemme that people can’t even rationally explain their perspective without being attacked so it’s pointless. 

Yet, the flat earther may well not want a rational discussion about it, people can and do react aggressively when their world view is challenged. It’s one of the reasons the internet is terrible for debate, there’s no body language to do with it. 

[AcousticallyChallenged]

Just now, The Voice of Reason said:

Re your second paragraph why would you want to “treat “ homosexuality with “psychiatric or psychological treatment.” From the (very admittedly few) homosexuals I know none of them would like surgical intervention. To do what?
 

Re the increased number of people now presenting with body dysmorphia, I know I will probably get crucified for this but maybe it’s because it has become more talked about and people who would otherwise not have considered it think “oh maybe that’s what I need”

In the same way that previously you had a few autistic children now it seems every mother is claiming their child has it for whatever reason ( bad behavior) etc. 

Obviously both conditions, autism and body dysmorphia are real but once things become more in the public domain with chat shows etc it seems the more people think that maybe that is what they have.

I await a barrage of criticism

There are more homosexual people who are “out” now. 

Does that mean that we have more homosexual people, or simply that it’s more acceptable and people who are homosexual can safely and legally express it? With fewer people feeling as though they have to be in the closet.

Cancer rates are rising, is it getting more prevalent, or are we better at detecting it? 

[finlo]

1 minute ago, AcousticallyChallenged said:

 

Cancer rates are rising, is it getting more prevalent, or are we better at detecting it? 

It's a nice little earner for some, I find it hard to believe we've yet to find a cure after decades and hundreds of billions have been thrown at it!

[John Wright]

23 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Re your second paragraph why would you want to “treat “ homosexuality with “psychiatric or psychological treatment.” From the (very admittedly few) homosexuals I know none of them would like surgical intervention. To do what?
 

Re the increased number of people now presenting with body dysmorphia, I know I will probably get crucified for this but maybe it’s because it has become more talked about and people who would otherwise not have considered it think “oh maybe that’s what I need”

In the same way that previously you had a few autistic children now it seems every mother is claiming their child has it for whatever reason ( bad behavior) etc. 

Obviously both conditions, autism and body dysmorphia are real but once things become more in the public domain with chat shows etc it seems the more people think that maybe that is what they have.

I await a barrage of criticism

I wouldn’t want to treat someone who was LGB with psychiatry or psychology. But that was tried for years. It’s what conversion is, crudely. Then there was chemical and actual castration, and electro aversion therapy. None of it works or worked. It just produced even more screwed up individuals.

I was pointing out the analogy with dealing with gender dysphoria. That is accepting it and providing gender affirming drug treatment or surgery, on the basis that gender dysphoria doesn’t  seem to respond to psychiatric or psychological treatments.

But that depends on proper diagnosis. That’s where puberty blockers come in. I don’t think your conclusion about increased numbers is valid. I think it’s more that local CAMHS services moved patients on to the GIDS at the Tavistock as soon as they could, the Tavistock became overwhelmed and waiting lists grew longer. So CAMHS referred even earlier.

I then contrasted that with body dysmorphia where the opposite seems to be the case, psychiatric and psychological treatments appear effective, cosmetic/surgical interventions don’t 

 

[John Wright]

25 minutes ago, AcousticallyChallenged said:.

Cancer rates are rising, is it getting more prevalent, or are we better at detecting it? 

Or people live longer and it’s predominantly a disease of ageing.

[The Voice of Reason]

18 minutes ago, John Wright said:

I wouldn’t want to treat someone who was LGB with psychiatry or psychology. But that was tried for years. It’s what conversion is, crudely. Then there was chemical and actual castration, and electro aversion therapy. None of it works or worked. It just produced even more screwed up individuals.

I was pointing out the analogy with dealing with gender dysphoria. That is accepting it and providing gender affirming drug treatment or surgery, on the basis that gender dysphoria doesn’t  seem to respond to psychiatric or psychological treatments.

But that depends on proper diagnosis. That’s where puberty blockers come in. I don’t think your conclusion about increased numbers is valid. I think it’s more that local CAMHS services moved patients on to the GIDS at the Tavistock as soon as they could, the Tavistock became overwhelmed and waiting lists grew longer. So CAMHS referred even earlier.

I then contrasted that with body dysmorphia where the opposite seems to be the case, psychiatric and psychological treatments appear effective, cosmetic/surgical interventions don’t 

 

Ok I will bow to your superior knowledge on dysmorphia. It’s not something I really know about

[Gladys]

By no means an expert, but what is missed is the role played by the human brain which has a great capacity for self and identity, and is affected by social constructs, ie my brain (or self) does not fit the social construct of my body.  We are immensely sentient beings. 

That is not to say the treatment should be of the brain (such as the psychiatric aversion  'remedies') but to recognise the role it plays in the misalignment with the body and, really, to deny that is to misunderstand what it is to be human. 

I probably haven't put that across very well, but I tried! 

 

[Bandits]

20 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

Ok I will bow to your superior knowledge on dysmorphia. It’s not something I really know about

JW makes a good point on the difference between the success rate of curing with therapy and the success rate of curing with drugs and surgery. But the core issue really for most people on the other side of the debate seems to be the whole self identification thing which a lot of people still don’t seem to accept. If you’re on a medical and psychological pathway to your preferred gender and you present as that gender that generally seems to be understandable. Most people get that. But just waking up one day and declaring that you’re a particular gender but just putting a wig or a dress on isn’t really changing your gender or the way you present. That’s what a lot of people still don’t seem to get. It was just called being exuberant or eccentric years ago. Now people sort of have to recognize some bloke in a badly fitting wig and a dress as an actual woman and that’s the thing Rowling etc seems to have an issue with in relation to rights and safe spaces. Which must be directed at an incredible small cohort of an already small group. 

[Gladys]

3 minutes ago, Bandits said:

JW makes a good point on the difference between the success rate of curing with therapy and the success rate of curing with drugs and surgery. But the core issue really for most people on the other side of the debate seems to be the whole self identification thing which a lot of people still don’t seem to accept. If you’re on a medical and psychological pathway to your preferred gender and you present as that gender that generally seems to be understandable. Most people get that. But just waking up one day and declaring that you’re a particular gender but just putting a wig or a dress on isn’t really changing your gender or the way you present. That’s what a lot of people still don’t seem to get. It was just called being exuberant or eccentric years ago. Now people sort of have to recognize some bloke in a badly fitting wig and a dress as an actual woman and that’s the thing Rowling etc seems to have an issue with in relation to rights and safe spaces. Which must be directed at an incredible small cohort of an already small group. 

Has the "waking up one day" thing ever really happened?

[Bandits]

9 minutes ago, Gladys said:

Has the "waking up one day" thing ever really happened?

Lots of people like to dress up. It’s a well known tradition in drag circles etc. It doesn’t mean that someone has changed their gender. It means that they like to present, or feel more comfortable presenting as, the opposite gender. As such self identification without any requirement for a medical or psychological pathway seems to be the main issue people like Rowling challenge. 

[Gladys]

2 minutes ago, Bandits said:

Lots of people like to dress up. It’s a well known tradition in drag circles etc. It doesn’t mean that someone has changed their gender. It means that they like to present, or feel more comfortable presenting as, the opposite gender. As such self identification without any requirement for a medical or psychological pathway seems to be the main issue people like Rowling challenge. 

Yes, but that is not the same as claiming a different gender 'all of a sudden'.