JK Rowling Manx Flag Controversy

[AcousticallyChallenged]

18 minutes ago, Bandits said:

JW makes a good point on the difference between the success rate of curing with therapy and the success rate of curing with drugs and surgery. But the core issue really for most people on the other side of the debate seems to be the whole self identification thing which a lot of people still don’t seem to accept. If you’re on a medical and psychological pathway to your preferred gender and you present as that gender that generally seems to be understandable. Most people get that. But just waking up one day and declaring that you’re a particular gender but just putting a wig or a dress on isn’t really changing your gender or the way you present. That’s what a lot of people still don’t seem to get. It was just called being exuberant or eccentric years ago. Now people sort of have to recognize some bloke in a badly fitting wig and a dress as an actual woman and that’s the thing Rowling etc seems to have an issue with in relation to rights and safe spaces. Which must be directed at an incredible small cohort of an already small group. 

Yet, in your words, this comes across as a 'load of made-up crap'.

Have you ever talked to a trans person in depth? Are you aware of the concept of passing?

Generally, trans people work very hard on their transition, so they aren't 'clocked'. Lots will avoid all sorts of social interactions and gatherings to try and avoid conflict.

Big bazza with a beard typically isn't strutting out in a frock and declaring he is now a lady. We aren't in an episode of Little Britain.

Trans people can end up giving themselves kidney issues from retaining urine, for the sake of avoiding having to use public facilities, and being seen to not align with the sign on the door.

Self-identification exists because appropriate healthcare provisions don't. The Gender clinics in the UK are currently running years behind for an initial appointment. So, many trans people, mainly transwomen with estrogen, as testosterone is a controlled drug, so has to be prescribed for trans men, take to self-importing medication from Europe and self-administering.

Currently, the gender clinic is offering first appointments to people who joined the waiting list in 2018. 4 years is a long old time to wait, and you can bet that many of them tried to 'get over it' for a long time before that with whatever coping mechanisms they had, healthy, or unhealthy.

[Bandits]

3 minutes ago, AcousticallyChallenged said:

Generally, trans people work very hard on their transition,

Yes but that’s specifically not what I was talking about is it? 

[AcousticallyChallenged]

Just now, Bandits said:

Yes but that’s specifically not what I was talking about is it? 

So, what are the appropriate hoops to jump through to identify as another gender?

Can you make us a snazzy checklist?

[Bandits]

1 minute ago, AcousticallyChallenged said:

So, what are the appropriate hoops to jump through to identify as another gender?

That isn’t what I was talking about and you know it.

[AcousticallyChallenged]

1 minute ago, Bandits said:

That isn’t what I was talking about and you know it.

You're conflating fashionable men in dresses with trans people.

[Bandits]

2 minutes ago, AcousticallyChallenged said:

You're conflating fashionable men in dresses with trans people.

No you’re presenting false arguments for what I actually said. 

[AcousticallyChallenged]

Just now, Bandits said:

No you’re presenting false arguments for what I actually said. 

Your argument seems to be that because men can wear a dress, trans people shouldn't be able to self identify, just in case.

Without really extrapolating in case of what.

[Bandits]

1 minute ago, AcousticallyChallenged said:

Your argument seems to be that because men can wear a dress, trans people shouldn't be able to self identify, just in case.

Without really extrapolating in case of what.

So much mis representation to twist what was said as it doesn’t suit your agenda.

[AcousticallyChallenged]

Just now, Bandits said:

So much mis representation to twist what was said as it doesn’t suit your agenda.

Please, correct me then, rather than just making blind accusations.

Put it into simple terms for me, clearly I need it.

[Jarndyce]

2 hours ago, AcousticallyChallenged said:

Cancer rates are rising, is it getting more prevalent, or are we better at detecting it?

 

2 hours ago, finlo said:

It's a nice little earner for some,

Crass.

[Declan]

7 hours ago, Gladys said:

By no means an expert, but what is missed is the role played by the human brain which has a great capacity for self and identity, and is affected by social constructs, ie my brain (or self) does not fit the social construct of my body.  We are immensely sentient beings. 

That is not to say the treatment should be of the brain (such as the psychiatric aversion  'remedies') but to recognise the role it plays in the misalignment with the body and, really, to deny that is to misunderstand what it is to be human. 

I probably haven't put that across very well, but I tried! 

 

Psychological and psychiatric interventions cure neurological conditions. Only provide ways of coping or reconciling with it.  
 

 

[John Wright]

1 hour ago, Declan said:

Psychological and psychiatric interventions cure neurological conditions. Only provide ways of coping or reconciling with it.  
 

 

Neurological conditions would never be treated by psychiatrists or psychologists. 

[Gladys]

1 hour ago, Declan said:

Psychological and psychiatric interventions cure neurological conditions. Only provide ways of coping or reconciling with it.  
 

 

I specifically excluded such interventions.  What I was trying to convey was the complexity of the mind and self which is at the heart of what makes us human.  Trying to sum some if this up as 'boys like cars, girls like dolls'  is just way too simplistic.  It tries to boil down a very complex thing into a simple thing which it isn't. 

[HeliX]

I'm going to start to look like I'm on commission, but a lot of misconceptions in this thread could be fixed by people reading Shon Faye's book.

Trans people don't just wake up one day feeling like the opposite gender. Medically gatekeeping whether someone is "legitimately" trans or not is daft, particularly as it can be 4 years to get any medical intervention at all in the UK. The main difference between self identification and someone who's begun to medically transition is often time, not anything to do with their legitimacy or trans-ness.

[Declan]

2 hours ago, John Wright said:

Neurological conditions would never be treated by psychiatrists or psychologists. 

And that was the point I was making. Patronising git. 

2 hours ago, Gladys said:

I specifically excluded such interventions.  What I was trying to convey was the complexity of the mind and self which is at the heart of what makes us human.  Trying to sum some if this up as 'boys like cars, girls like dolls'  is just way too simplistic.  It tries to boil down a very complex thing into a simple thing which it isn't. 

I was agreeing with you and using your point as a jumping off point for my thoughts. 
 

People seem to think that if the brain is the source of an issue the solution is therapy or counselling or psychiatric interventions. But if the condition is, say autism, dyslexia or ADHD it’s part of who you are, so interventions only help you manage how you interact with the physical world. 
 

With homosexuality we used to try to force people to conform to a heteronormativite world by social pressure, legal restraints and in the mid 20th cent psychiatric “cures” were tried. But now the world has recognised that being gay is just who you are and made adjustments. The physical world has changed to accommodate same-sex attraction. 
 

With gender dismorphia we can make similar legal and societal changes to make the world more accommodating to trans people. But however much society changes there remains a part of the physical world that is unchanged - the individual’s own body and the intervention for that is medical.