JK Rowling Manx Flag Controversy

[AcousticallyChallenged]

23 minutes ago, Newsdesk said:

But people like you are unbelievably woke 😂😂

Oh you say the sweetest things.

Careful or I'll swoon.

[wrighty]

Calm down chaps, this woke/gammon counter accusing is pretty pointless. 
 

Here’s a point in the whole trans issue that I thought of earlier. Is it because we’re British? In France, for example, I don’t think they much care which pissoir you go in, but in England, having been brought up on carry on films and comedy homophobia/cross dressers, we clearly have a massive hang-up about a man in a dress using the ladies toilet. 
 

So my question is, for those that follow these things much more than I do, is the Trans debate as polarised in Continental Europe, or do they just shrug and get on with it?

[AcousticallyChallenged]

44 minutes ago, Newsdesk said:

Are they the ones that you, Jack white,  lxx or acoustically challenged participate in? They do seem to go on a bit for no real reason or benefit. 

So do you...but we don't complain. Much.

[AcousticallyChallenged]

1 hour ago, Hoops said:

Well, the definition of a woman is 'an adult female human being', a female denoting the sex that can bear offspring. So, again, I would counter that transwomen clearly are not women. They are transwomen. And many are happy to acknowledge that.

You can go to the women's history museum in more then one country.

look up 'women's culture' on wiki, it's quite comprehensive, you'll find.

Appropriating is taking something for one's own use, particularly without the owner's permission.

Women certainly have a history of oppression.

So yes, I think you can argue that they are similar.

Or is female denoting the gender?

From your same dictionary, woman is defined as 'being a woman or a girl'.

I think we can safely say that a trans woman is still a woman.

Are you as incensed about trans men appropriating male culture? It'd only be fair if you were.

[AcousticallyChallenged]

3 minutes ago, wrighty said:

Calm down chaps, this woke/gammon counter accusing is pretty pointless. 
 

Here’s a point in the whole trans issue that I thought of earlier. Is it because we’re British? In France, for example, I don’t think they much care which pissoir you go in, but in England, having been brought up on carry on films and comedy homophobia/cross dressers, we clearly have a massive hang-up about a man in a dress using the ladies toilet. 
 

So my question is, for those that follow these things much more than I do, is the Trans debate as polarised in Continental Europe, or do they just shrug and get on with it?

I think a lot of people do conflate it with cross-dressers, not helped by a lot of media, even quite recent media. Little Britain wasn't really that long ago in the scheme of things.

A lot of people seem to forget that for a transgender person, choosing the bathroom to use can be agonising and some will avoid it as though their life depends on it.

Trans people do just want to be able to poo in peace like anyone else. And ideally not get their heads kicked in in the process. Is it really that objectionable for so many members?

[HeliX]

2 minutes ago, AcousticallyChallenged said:

I think a lot of people do conflate it with cross-dressers, not helped by a lot of media, even quite recent media. Little Britain wasn't really that long ago in the scheme of things.

A lot of people seem to forget that for a transgender person, choosing the bathroom to use can be agonising and some will avoid it as though their life depends on it.

Trans people do just want to be able to poo in peace like anyone else. And ideally not get their heads kicked in in the process. Is it really that objectionable for so many members?

It's also by far the stupidest part of the whole debate. On several levels. For one, blanket banning trans people from their chosen bathroom because some of them could be pretending in order to get closer to the opposite sex is insane. The thing that helps to prevent sexual assault in bathrooms is that it's illegal. It's not the little picture on the door of a person with or without a skirt on.

If a man wants to assault women in the women's bathroom he can just open the door and do it. The "trans panic" about bathrooms is nuts.

[hissingsid]

Rowling is entitled to an opinion as is everyone but she is not entitled to disrespect our National flag by introducing it into her Twitter rants, nor the flag of any state it just demonstrates what an ignorant, graceless person she is.   Why did she not use the Scottish flag ?   Glasgow is her birth city after all.

[AcousticallyChallenged]

2 minutes ago, offshoremanxman said:

It seems to be a bigger issue in the USA than it is here. But then again the post Trump USA gives the Taliban a good run for it’s money when it comes to tolerance. That said it’s women (actual women like Rowling) who seem to be defining this debate around safe spaces etc. And it’s understandable why that’s the case as many have grown up wanting (or needing) to control their environment. 

'Actual women'...

Says it all really.

[AcousticallyChallenged]

It seems there are a lot of middle-aged straight men that seem to think they know what's best for cisgender and transgender women.

Funny that really, there's a bit of a historical precedent for that too.

[AcousticallyChallenged]

1 minute ago, offshoremanxman said:

Rowling was born female and had a genuine female life experience through her whole life. Including the early misogyny and disempowerment that breeds. What is wrong with pointing that out? 

So, in your eyes, a trans person cannot have a genuine female life experience?

'Well they ain't real wimmin so what do they know?'

Are you also upset about men's safe spaces being invaded by trans men who 'haven't had genuine male life experience'?

[AcousticallyChallenged]

So, if we go for the private spaces by sex debate, let's actually pick a couple of examples.

This first is Brian Michael Smith, who was born female and identifies as male. The second is Janet Mock, who was born male and identifies as female.

So, would it be appropriate for either to be in the spaces for their birth gender? I can imagine that Brian would not be welcome in a women's changing room. Nor Janet in the men's.

Edited July 5, 2022 by AcousticallyChallenged
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[AcousticallyChallenged]

Just now, offshoremanxman said:

You’re twisting arguments. That’s so far detached from what I said. 

I'm merely treating it with the same lack of nuance you are.

[AcousticallyChallenged]

9 minutes ago, offshoremanxman said:

I’m using Rowling as a guide in that most of peoples world view and opinions are formed at a very early age and so a lot (not all) of trans women don’t experience the full barriers and social blocks that cis women of her generation have had to experience growing up. As for trans men. I’m sure most men don’t actually give a toss because they aren’t living in fear of being beaten up, or raped, or otherwise abused by someone stronger than they are sharing the same private space as them.

The biggest threat to women, trans or cis, is often men. Should we be putting trans women at unnecessary risk of being beaten up, raped or otherwise abused?

No man is dressing up in a frock to enter these spaces with the intent purpose to attack women. They'd just enter the space anyway.

[HeliX]

11 minutes ago, offshoremanxman said:

I’m using Rowling as a guide in that most of peoples world view and opinions are formed at a very early age and so a lot (not all) of trans women don’t experience the full barriers and social blocks that cis women of her generation have had to experience growing up. As for trans men. I’m sure most men don’t actually give a toss because they aren’t living in fear of being beaten up, or raped, or otherwise abused by someone stronger than they are sharing the same private space as them.

Trans men and women are both at pretty high risk of sexual assault, sadly.

I'm not sure the "didn't experience hardship as a young woman" argument holds much water - what's the actionable outcome from that? Trans women should suffer more hardship? It smells the same as the whole "I had to walk uphill both ways to and from school after waking up in a room with ice on the inside of the windows, so I hope young people have shit lives too" nonsense.

[Hoops]

1 hour ago, AcousticallyChallenged said:

Or is female denoting the gender?

From your same dictionary, woman is defined as 'being a woman or a girl'.

I think we can safely say that a trans woman is still a woman.

Are you as incensed about trans men appropriating male culture? It'd only be fair if you were.

woman is defined as woman? You got ripped off when you bought your dictionary.

Trans men are trans men, not men. Good luck to them. But I suppose one difference, if we go into the safe space argument, is that men, on the whole, do not feel physically threatened by the presence  of women, having not had a history of oppression by them.

Helix, I don't think anyone has said that trans people haven't faced oppression. Of course they have, they do, it's about working out the best way to accommodate everyone. Many women obviously feel that they shouldn't have to give up their hard earned rights and chances to appease what is a tiny percentage of the population. Sport being the most obvious example, but safe spaces also being so important, especially with the gender recognition acts in some countries, that allow self identification, being open to abuse. It's vital that safe spaces feel safe, not threatening.  Being labelled now, not as a woman and all that encompasses, but merely by bodily functions, is somewhat demeaning, a retrograde step in the on-going battle for equality.