Tim's Time's Up

[asitis]

2 hours ago, Will Halsall said:

Likewise, I normally agree with you too, but I don't share your stance on this one, though I respectfully understand your reasoning. There is so much to this story, particularly the 'split purchase' of the hotel and the Links (including roads and lodge); my understanding is that the owners of the Links were miffed that they missed out on the hotel too as it happens, hence the attempted tinkering of the Area Plan and subsequent court case that was granted in favour of Heritage/Dandara/FIDL. If you read into all of the planning applications over the past 5 years around the Derbyhaven area, along with who objects to what and the vanity projects such as illuminated geese etc. I think it gives a good insight into some people treating the area as their own personal fiefdom;  the constant objections to the hotel development are more to do with this attitude than the betterment of the area.

Again Will largely agreed but I wonder why Dandara were the preferred option ? be interesting to drill down into that one methinks !

[WTF]

2 hours ago, Will Halsall said:

I am not anonymous on this forum Stu, and I post under my own name. I can confirm that in the Passenger Transport sector I have significantly more managerial experience than both you and Tim Crookall added together - I owned a company that specialised in several areas of the Passenger Transport industry from 1991 - 2015, with a client list including MerseyTravel/Rail, GMPTE/TFGM, Metro Link, Northern Rail, Network Rail, Virgin Rail, Bucks, Links, York, Cheshire etc. etc. 

 

there may be an opening at bus vannin for you.

[Will Halsall]

6 minutes ago, WTF said:

there may be an opening at bus vannin for you.

Over Longworth's dead body!

[KERED]

2 hours ago, Dirty Buggane said:

Would you not point them to complaints and enquiries. But if you are going to quote information to an audience of your peers as truth and it seems like shite, I would make sure the info was right. Not regurgitate it ad lib, and then say its not my fault its what they told me to say.

Sort of " a big boy made me do it"

[Non-Believer]

Tim Crookall need only have looked back at the claptrap regurgitated by his most recent predecessors Harmer and Baker (and which was duly proven to be claptrap too, hence their "departures"), to be aware that what he was being told was likely to be self-serving, mendacious bullshit.

His alarm bells should have been ringing from the moment he "took up the reins" of that Dept in respect of what information he was being fed.

Not standing before the Court of Tynwald and duly making the same sort of farce of himself as his predecessors did.

[Numbnuts]

2 minutes ago, Non-Believer said:

Tim Crookall need only have looked back at the claptrap regurgitated by his most recent predecessors Harmer and Baker (and which was duly proven to be claptrap too, hence their "departures"), to be aware that what he was being told was likely to be self-serving, mendacious bullshit.

His alarm bells should have been ringing from the moment he "took up the reins" of that Dept in respect of what information he was being fed.

Not standing before the Court of Tynwald and duly making the same sort of farce of himself as his predecessors did.

This +loads ! Never a truer word.

if a MHK takes on DOI and didn't  know how bad it is then I suggest they should never have been considered for the post in the first place. 

Edited July 23, 2022 by Numbnuts

[WTF]

36 minutes ago, Will Halsall said:

Over Longworth's dead body!

i'm sure there a few folks that would like to help with that

[Hmmmm]

1 hour ago, Zarley said:

Maybe Crookall did double-check and the same lies were reiterated?

As for him checking social media, who has time for that? How much fake news would one have to wade through on SM when searching for the truth of any given situation? 

This was not a new issue, it had been a cuase for concern for many months leading up to TT,  Tim was fully aware of the issues prior to TT. 

Staff illness stops 77 bus services running in April | iomtoday.co.im

Staff shortages cause bus chaos | iomtoday.co.im

So, given the history and then to be provided with the news of no cancellations  must have caused some alarm bells to tingle.  Hence the less than flattering headlines following the nonsense he spouted.  No, this was clearly an issue that needed more thought and verification before standing up and trying to defend a service that was not performing.  

[Roger Mexico]

31 minutes ago, Non-Believer said:

Tim Crookall need only have looked back at the claptrap regurgitated by his most recent predecessors Harmer and Baker (and which was duly proven to be claptrap too, hence their "departures"), to be aware that what he was being told was likely to be self-serving, mendacious bullshit.

His alarm bells should have been ringing from the moment he "took up the reins" of that Dept in respect of what information he was being fed.

Not standing before the Court of Tynwald and duly making the same sort of farce of himself as his predecessors did.

I'm sure he did know - I've pointed out on here how he's used the "I am told" formula a lot in the past.  In those circumstances all you can do under the current system is ask again and clarify that what they are providing is what was wanted and if it is true.  But if they lie to you twice there's not much a Minister can do.  They can't check everything and the civil service could just give them the wrong data anyway.

The important thing is what happens to the civil servants who do misinform the politicians and the public.  And the answer seems to be they get away with it.

[Will Halsall]

33 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said:

I'm sure he did know - I've pointed out on here how he's used the "I am told" formula a lot in the past.  In those circumstances all you can do under the current system is ask again and clarify that what they are providing is what was wanted and if it is true.  But if they lie to you twice there's not much a Minister can do.  They can't check everything and the civil service could just give them the wrong data anyway.

The important thing is what happens to the civil servants who do misinform the politicians and the public.  And the answer seems to be they get away with it.

Roger, am I mistaken here - I was always under the impression that the Department Minister was able to (maybe through CoMin) have his CE removed if he had lost confidence in him/her?

 

ETA: https://www.gov.im/media/1359547/the-government-code-february-2017.pdf

18. 4.20  Where in the rare event that a Minister finds that he cannot work reasonably with a particular official in a key position, it is open to the Minister to bring this to the attention of the Chief Executive Officer of the Department (or to the Chief Minister or Chief Secretary if the official concerned is the Chief Executive Officer). In such circumstances, every effort would be made, involving the Public Services Commission where appropriate, to secure a satisfactory resolution to the situation.

Edited July 23, 2022 by Will Halsall

[Omobono]

its interesting,  there have been several temporary or interim appointments in the DOI  recently including a senior  person in ports who does not appear to have any maritime experience or qualifications , I wonder if we are going to see a root and branch review of this most inefficient and totally ineffectual department  that has become an Albatross around governments  neck , and will no doubt be responsible  for many Tynwald  scrutiny  , public accounts committee  enquiries  for years to come , the DOI is just too big and has become a money wasting  monster , its past time for it to be broken up  into smaller specialised  units who can deal  with their own areas of responsibility quickly  and not part of an organisation  that takes days  and hundreds of people to have a department meeting ,Watch this Space !

[Non-Believer]

1 hour ago, Will Halsall said:

Roger, am I mistaken here - I was always under the impression that the Department Minister was able to (maybe through CoMin) have his CE removed if he had lost confidence in him/her?

 

ETA: https://www.gov.im/media/1359547/the-government-code-february-2017.pdf

18. 4.20  Where in the rare event that a Minister finds that he cannot work reasonably with a particular official in a key position, it is open to the Minister to bring this to the attention of the Chief Executive Officer of the Department (or to the Chief Minister or Chief Secretary if the official concerned is the Chief Executive Officer). In such circumstances, every effort would be made, involving the Public Services Commission where appropriate, to secure a satisfactory resolution to the situation.

Well, of course Nick Black did "step down" (for want of another expression) as CEO very early into Crookall's DOI reign; whether that was Crookall or Cannan's influence I suppose we'll never know.

But I think it would be reasonable to say that Black was exhibiting no control over his Dept, his Directors were running amok and lying through their teeth when it suited them, a trait that it would appear continued after Black's departure. Maybe they got so used to Black and the politicos support that they thought that they could continue ad infinitum?

[joebean]

Ministers depend on the advice they are given and the statements they read out in Tynwald are the work of their civil servants. It used to be a convention within the Civil Service (here and in the UK) that the Minister was never given inaccurate or misleading information to disclose in parliament.  Doing so would lead to the sacking of the Minister and disciplinary action against the official or officials involved. Great care was taken to word any answer in such a way that it contained no lies but was merely economical with the amount of truth disclosed. 
What we have seen over the last 10 or so years is the slow creep of dishonesty and a lack of respect for proper standards in senior public office. This has been facilitated by politicians who are weak or naive. I had occasion to tell a particular politician, privately, that he had been lied to but the response was to ignore the possibility and merely profess his “disappointment” if that had been the case. He went on to become a Minister and his continuing naivety and lack of challenge of what he was being told was, eventually his downfall. When the CM says that culture needs to change, it needs to start with the reintroduction of honesty as an absolute principle. He has made a start by clearing some desks but the culture might be more difficult to address in the short term, at least. 

[Wavey Davey]

On 7/19/2022 at 12:42 PM, Gizo said:

Money on Glover.  He’s certainly settled into the trough quickly. Ideal position for his wife. 

Glover has now had covid for the second time so is presumably an expert on it by now. He seems to be keeping a lot quieter about it this time round though. Maybe he’s realized that his views on covid make him completely prejudiced as the impartial Chairman of any covid inquiry. Tynwald would literally be mad to appoint him to such a role as he can’t possibly be impartial with his track record of pandemic bleating. 

[Gladys]

29 minutes ago, joebean said:

Ministers depend on the advice they are given and the statements they read out in Tynwald are the work of their civil servants. It used to be a convention within the Civil Service (here and in the UK) that the Minister was never given inaccurate or misleading information to disclose in parliament.  Doing so would lead to the sacking of the Minister and disciplinary action against the official or officials involved. Great care was taken to word any answer in such a way that it contained no lies but was merely economical with the amount of truth disclosed. 
What we have seen over the last 10 or so years is the slow creep of dishonesty and a lack of respect for proper standards in senior public office. This has been facilitated by politicians who are weak or naive. I had occasion to tell a particular politician, privately, that he had been lied to but the response was to ignore the possibility and merely profess his “disappointment” if that had been the case. He went on to become a Minister and his continuing naivety and lack of challenge of what he was being told was, eventually his downfall. When the CM says that culture needs to change, it needs to start with the reintroduction of honesty as an absolute principle. He has made a start by clearing some desks but the culture might be more difficult to address in the short term, at least. 

In a previous life, I have had to gather information for a couple of PQs. All the information gathered was subjected to close scrutiny before it was fed up to the government department who also scrutinised and questioned it.

If it had been in any way inaccurate, there would have been hell to pay.  All that was provided was facts, no interpretation of the facts.  That was for the higher echelons.  

Perhaps that process is circumvented/truncated here?