Alf Cannan's I Have A Dream

[Lxxx]

1 hour ago, SleepyJoe said:

Given that Ms Lord-Brennan has probably penned much of the policy [with a good deal of CS input I dare say] how was it over her head?

Oh dear. She likes to portray herself as one of the new breed of young, intelligent, forward-thinking MHK's too. We're in trouble aren't we.

[A fool and his money.....]

3 hours ago, jackwhite said:

I don't just mean government facilities. 

Investment, hospitality etc would all withdraw and it would be a little backwater. 

Are you Manx by any chance? It sounds like the kind of idealist plan of a Manx person. 

I don't disagree with your sentiment but I don't think you're thinking about this commercially. If you're happy to have the Isle of Man like a very rural rundown seaside town, that's the way to go.

I don't just mean government facilities either. That's just it - you're are thinking about it purely commercially, there's a lot more to the island than that, who wants to live in an accountants creation?

It's very simple. Government want to increase the population to 100K to start to balance our aging population. I don't necessarily agree with them that this will work but there you go. Their plan is to throw money at people, literally and in the form of tax cuts, in order to achieve this.

My preference would be to make the island a place where people would like to come and work, it makes more sense to me and the census data for the last ten years would suggest the former approach doesn't work.

You may consider this to make me some backward Manx idealist and consider yourself more worldly because you're from the UK. You know what they say about assumption. A bit like the assumption that reducing inequality would transform us into a run down seaside town (have you been to Douglas lately?)

For me living somewhere has always been about appreciating it for what it is. That includes its culture, its people, its customs, its differences. These are what makes a place what it is. To consider your chosen home purely in terms of what you can get from it financially is not a particularly constructive, graceful or positive approach. If you want "better facilities" then there are thousands of places in the world that would provide them.

IMHO the island is what it is - it has no need for significant population growth, it has no need to become an over-regulated, over-populated poor imitation of the UK.

[doc.fixit]

43 minutes ago, A fool and his money..... said:

I don't just mean government facilities either. That's just it - you're are thinking about it purely commercially, there's a lot more to the island than that, who wants to live in an accountants creation?

It's very simple. Government want to increase the population to 100K to start to balance our aging population. I don't necessarily agree with them that this will work but there you go. Their plan is to throw money at people, literally and in the form of tax cuts, in order to achieve this.

My preference would be to make the island a place where people would like to come and work, it makes more sense to me and the census data for the last ten years would suggest the former approach doesn't work.

You may consider this to make me some backward Manx idealist and consider yourself more worldly because you're from the UK. You know what they say about assumption. A bit like the assumption that reducing inequality would transform us into a run down seaside town (have you been to Douglas lately?)

For me living somewhere has always been about appreciating it for what it is. That includes its culture, its people, its customs, its differences. These are what makes a place what it is. To consider your chosen home purely in terms of what you can get from it financially is not a particularly constructive, graceful or positive approach. If you want "better facilities" then there are thousands of places in the world that would provide them.

IMHO the island is what it is - it has no need for significant population growth, it has no need to become an over-regulated, over-populated poor imitation of the UK.

Totally agree! Well put.

[Non-Believer]

The Island just needs leaner, less expensive and more efficient Govt and public services. The current cost of these (and their remarkable superannuation liability) will be in no small part the driver behind this new initiative.

But I don't believe that people will simply relocate here on the vague promises of our Govt, the infrastructure needs to be here first to make it attractive. That's where the spend should be, and should have been from years back. New people won't want to sit around whilst we drag things up to scratch to accommodate them.

It's all cart before the horse.

[thommo2010]

Once you admit that we're pretty much screwed then you become a lot happier. 

[jackwhite]

3 hours ago, A fool and his money..... said:

I don't just mean government facilities either. That's just it - you're are thinking about it purely commercially, there's a lot more to the island than that, who wants to live in an accountants creation?

It's very simple. Government want to increase the population to 100K to start to balance our aging population. I don't necessarily agree with them that this will work but there you go. Their plan is to throw money at people, literally and in the form of tax cuts, in order to achieve this.

My preference would be to make the island a place where people would like to come and work, it makes more sense to me and the census data for the last ten years would suggest the former approach doesn't work.

You may consider this to make me some backward Manx idealist and consider yourself more worldly because you're from the UK. You know what they say about assumption. A bit like the assumption that reducing inequality would transform us into a run down seaside town (have you been to Douglas lately?)

For me living somewhere has always been about appreciating it for what it is. That includes its culture, its people, its customs, its differences. These are what makes a place what it is. To consider your chosen home purely in terms of what you can get from it financially is not a particularly constructive, graceful or positive approach. If you want "better facilities" then there are thousands of places in the world that would provide them.

IMHO the island is what it is - it has no need for significant population growth, it has no need to become an over-regulated, over-populated poor imitation of the UK.

So you want it to become a Manx nirvana and chase the money out effectively.

If that's the case, how do you intend then to make it somewhere people want to come and live and work? Because it's barely that at the moment and it certainly won't be if you take away those things.

You have a very idealist approach. It's admirable and I also used to be much the same. However there's no realism in it. It's basically 'build it and they will (might/possibly/likely won't) come'.

 

Edited July 26, 2022 by jackwhite

[Lxxx]

3 hours ago, A fool and his money..... said:

I don't just mean government facilities either. That's just it - you're are thinking about it purely commercially, there's a lot more to the island than that, who wants to live in an accountants creation?

It's very simple. Government want to increase the population to 100K to start to balance our aging population. I don't necessarily agree with them that this will work but there you go. Their plan is to throw money at people, literally and in the form of tax cuts, in order to achieve this.

My preference would be to make the island a place where people would like to come and work, it makes more sense to me and the census data for the last ten years would suggest the former approach doesn't work.

You may consider this to make me some backward Manx idealist and consider yourself more worldly because you're from the UK. You know what they say about assumption. A bit like the assumption that reducing inequality would transform us into a run down seaside town (have you been to Douglas lately?)

For me living somewhere has always been about appreciating it for what it is. That includes its culture, its people, its customs, its differences. These are what makes a place what it is. To consider your chosen home purely in terms of what you can get from it financially is not a particularly constructive, graceful or positive approach. If you want "better facilities" then there are thousands of places in the world that would provide them.

IMHO the island is what it is - it has no need for significant population growth, it has no need to become an over-regulated, over-populated poor imitation of the UK.

Sounds lovely written down. In reality it's a pipedream. 

The world has moved on since the world you remember, or would like it to be. We have a broken system, the infrastructure is crumbling, key workers are leaving in their droves and the lights are going out slowly. Keeping the status quo isn't an option. We either think big and different or we become the Isle of Wight. This is likely to be last throw of the dice before the worldwide drag net of offshore havens catches us and we change irreversibly. 

The best shot we have is to go big or go home. Apply to become a Charter City and appeal to the libertarian billionaires who are slowly building a new network of trade centres around the world or become an island county of the UK.

Sink or swim.

Edited July 26, 2022 by Lxxx

[A fool and his money.....]

17 minutes ago, jackwhite said:

So you want it to become a Manx nirvana and chase the money out effectively.

If that's the case, how do you intend then to make it somewhere people want to come and live and work? Because it's barely that at the moment and it certainly won't be if you take away those things.

You have a very idealist approach. However there's no realism in it. It's basically 'build it and they will (might/possibly/likely won't) come.

 

It's not idealism, it's pragmatism. Nobody is chasing anybody out, merely stop paying them to live here.

We've had over 30 years of your "realist" approach. The reality is that we now have a housing crisis, a cost of living crisis, a health care crisis, a public transport crisis, an energy crisis........

Lets be pragmatic, it isn't working, the last thing we need is more of the same, even if you are doing well out of it, a vast majority of people here are not.

[Dirty Buggane]

4 hours ago, SleepyJoe said:

Ms Lord-Brennan is the Minister for the Cabinet Office

And Tim Crookall was Minister for DfE and part of the Council of Ministers

Your Point Being

[A fool and his money.....]

4 minutes ago, Lxxx said:

Sounds lovely written down. In reality it's a pipedream. 

The world has moved on since the world you remember, or would like it to be. We have a broken system, the infrastructure is crumbling, key workers are leaving in their droves and the lights are going out slowly. Keeping the status quo isn't an option. We either think big and different or we become the Isle of Wight. This is likely to be last throw of the dice before the worldwide drag net of offshore havens catches us and we change irreversibly. 

The best shot we have is to go big or go home. Apply to become a Charter City and appeal to the libertarian billionaires who are slowly building a new network of trade centres around the world or become an island county of the UK.

Sink or swim.

Think big and different, that's exactly what I'm suggesting. Perhaps if you could see further than your own bank account you'd see the possibilities, rather than remaining stuck in the past.

[jackwhite]

6 minutes ago, A fool and his money..... said:

Think big and different, that's exactly what I'm suggesting. Perhaps if you could see further than your own bank account you'd see the possibilities, rather than remaining stuck in the past.

But you're not actually thinking big and different. You're coming up with an idealist world but no actual plan to get there.

Again, they're struggling to attract people to the Isle of Man already. So if they change it and they have equality and affordable housing, you think people are going to move here because...em.......well we have nice scenery. It's a pipe dream. You sound very naive. If that doesn't work, what's plan b?

Even IF (note the big if) they solve the housing issue, it's still bloody expensive to live here with shipping costs, additional costs to get on and off island if going away etc. But it's ok because, well it will be.

Also throwing accusations about people around only weakens your viewpoint, not strengthens it, despite you playing to the crowd.

Edited July 26, 2022 by jackwhite

[A fool and his money.....]

1 minute ago, jackwhite said:

But you're not actually thinking big and different. You're coming up with an idealist world but no actual plan to get there.

Again, they're struggling to attract people to the Isle of Man already. So if they change it and they have equality and affordable housing, you think people are going to move here because...em.......well we have nice scenery. It's a pipe dream. You sound very naive. If that doesn't work, what's plan b?

Also throwing accusations about people around only weakens your viewpoint, not strengthens it, despite you playing to the crowd.

There's none so blind as those who will not see. You were the one throwing accusations around IIRC. I suggest a different approach to attracting people and you brand me a "Manx Idealist" and naive.

There's a reason they're struggling to attract people here already - progressive thinking nor the scenery are it.

600 net economically active migration in the last ten years. I think it's you who could do with some realism.

[jackwhite]

3 minutes ago, A fool and his money..... said:

There's none so blind as those who will not see. You were the one throwing accusations around IIRC. I suggest a different approach to attracting people and you brand me a "Manx Idealist" and naive.

There's a reason they're struggling to attract people here already - progressive thinking nor the scenery are it.

600 net economically active migration in the last ten years. I think it's you who could do with some realism.

So you don't actually have a plan?

You are a Manx idealist and naive. You're then saying to me I think I'm above people (other worldly as you put it) and someone else as thinking of their bank account, when all they are doing is being contrary to your 'plan' (put like this as there is a distinct lack of one).

You sound like you're running to be an MHK. We'll get affordable housing and equality for all. We don't know how we'll get it but we will.

Edited July 26, 2022 by jackwhite

[A fool and his money.....]

9 minutes ago, jackwhite said:

So you don't actually have a plan?

You are a Manx idealist and naive. You're then saying to me I think I'm above people (other worldly as you put it) and someone else as thinking of their bank account, when all they are doing is being contrary to your 'plan' (put like this as there is a distinct lack of one).

You sound like you're running to be an MHK. We'll get affordable housing and equality for all. We don't know how we'll get it but we will.

My plans are well documented on previous pages, you obviously have your own ideas. For what it's worth I'm not Manx, I do however appreciate the place for what it has to offer and moved over for reasons other than tax breaks or NI holidays. I've been lucky to have lived in several different places in the world and enjoyed each of them for different reasons, none of them financial.

The vast majority of people I have met are honest, hardworking, decent people who value a lot of things besides money, the Island already possesses many of these, it wouldn't take much to add to them.

Sadly our "plan" for attracting people seems to be very one dimensional despite it demonstrably not working. Have you ever chosen a job for the money? How did that work out for you? 

[jackwhite]

26 minutes ago, A fool and his money..... said:

My plans are well documented on previous pages, you obviously have your own ideas. For what it's worth I'm not Manx, I do however appreciate the place for what it has to offer and moved over for reasons other than tax breaks or NI holidays. I've been lucky to have lived in several different places in the world and enjoyed each of them for different reasons, none of them financial.

The vast majority of people I have met are honest, hardworking, decent people who value a lot of things besides money, the Island already possesses many of these, it wouldn't take much to add to them.

Sadly our "plan" for attracting people seems to be very one dimensional despite it demonstrably not working. Have you ever chosen a job for the money? How did that work out for you? 

No offence mate but there isn't a plan. As I said it's all very 'build it and they will come'. I'm of the opposite opinion, I think your plan is the one that sinks the island for good. There's no reason for people to move here otherwise.

I've never moved solely for money, no.

I don't disagree with your ideals, I just think what you're proposing isn't realistic.