Please Sir can I have more!!

[Newsdesk]

50 minutes ago, cissolt said:

Is anyone listening to the statement from Dr Allanson?  He has mentioned reducing fuel duty, I assume he's talking about the previous reduction and not an actual proactive measure being taken by our government?

I’m not sure they can unless the UK reduces it first.

[Banker]

49 minutes ago, manxman1980 said:

You haven't answered the question though...  how would you pay firefighters based on output? 

How would you pay teachers based on output?  What measures would you use?  Exam and testing results? What about Primary school teachers?  How would you account for difficult behaviour of pupils? What about pupils with poor attendance? What about the impact of parents on their child's education? 

Teachers aren't producing widgets.  They are dealing with individuals whose ability and application can vary massively. 

Not much point paying our teachers on exam results as they wouldn’t get paid much😂

[AOR]

1 hour ago, Banker said:

Not much point paying our teachers on exam results as they wouldn’t get paid much😂

I thought these days just about everyone gets A* for more-or-less everything.

[P.K.]

2 hours ago, manxman1980 said:

They are dealing with individuals whose ability and application can vary massively. 

So can that of the teachers....

Teachers are there to teach. They are not there to discipline unruly pupils. That's the job of the parents. So there are processes to deal with them.

I fully appreciate how you have to pay the market rate. If you don't then your staff will leave to organisations that DO pay the going rate.

So then you have to go through all the recruitment pain. And guess what? You won't recruit anyone unless you advertise at the going rate. Which means, after lots of pain, that you end up paying it anyway!

[2112]

4 hours ago, b4mbi said:

My understanding that an urgent question has been tabled for discussion in this afternoon's Tynwald sitting regarding this matter.

Let's hope a) it is discussed b) actions follow, not more words....

Hope springs eternal....

Follow up action? That’s something they won’t do. IOMG will kick the can down the road. I do have some sympathy and understand that they and others want salary to cover and pay the bills. The cost of living on Fantasy Island is hard, and it’s no wonder the island can’t recruit teachers. If IOMG had sorted out a proper support package for islanders, help for utilities and not a miserly price freeze and you have to pay it back later, then perhaps the teachers may be in a mood to think differently in negotiations. I don’t think Manx Utilities price freeze and £2 bus fare per journey is much use to a teacher - it’s still not a great help to those who may own their homes. 

[AcousticallyChallenged]

1 hour ago, P.K. said:

So can that of the teachers....

Teachers are there to teach. They are not there to discipline unruly pupils. That's the job of the parents. So there are processes to deal with them.

Yet, teachers are having now to deal with kids starting reception that aren't even toilet trained properly.

Whether or not parents should be doing a better job becomes moot when it is a current reality that teachers have to deal with.

Oftentimes, the processes culminate in exclusion, which the unruly pupil may be seeking all along.

[2112]

6 hours ago, 2112 said:

On the contrary but sadly IOMG have badly mismanaged the economy, and now the cupboard is bare. If they hadn’t wasted money expanding the civil service, empire building, navel gazing, dick waving, grandstanding and needless and badly thought out and managed capital infrastructure projects then maybe there may be something to play with.

 

Another waste of money was the Government Conference. Loads of staff employed. A IOMG vanity project. If they took any notice of peoples concerns then this served its purpose. What’s the likelihood of that?

[fredtosser]

82% of NASUWT teachers have apparently voted in favour of strike action

[somewhatdamaged]

So i've been trying to sit on the fence about this and see it from both sides, even though it has affected me with kids having to stay home etc. Interested to hear the takes on what i've been hearing from other people, and whether these things are correct or not:-

1. Teachers work a 30 hour week contractually (i understand they can work over that with marking work etc)

2. They get 14 weeks holiday a year, fully paid (plus the new extra day at Xmas)

3.  Salary ranges from 27-44k on average (and i would assume they come in on the low end)

4. Over lockdown (from what i saw), most teachers did almost nothing. We were given VERY little work for the kids (or just told to log onto BBC Bitesize and find stuff to do!!), work often wasn't even looked at/marked and we had to pretty much teach them ourselves, whilst also working full time jobs remotely. They were also fully paid, yet myself and my wife had to sometimes use annual leave to give them the best attention / assistance we could.  Yes i know COVID wasn't their fault, but we saw very little being done by them, other than days some teachers worked (at Onchan primary) to help the vulnerable children (which incidentally the current strike action is not offering)

5. I'm not sure what the pay rise they were offered is, but i know that most employers have offered a lousy pay rise (as they often will!), citing the same "costs" that employees are having to bear (increased heating etc).  The teachers were offered the same as the UK plus an extra 1%? With our lower taxes, is that better? Or do the increased house prices on the IOM counter this?

6.  They are roughly aware of the salary they will be paid when taking the job on (or more specifically choosing this as career), and if it's not enough (which i fully appreciate it may not be), they could try and move into a private school teaching or take a career elsewhere? Surely you don't spend years getting qualified, and then get your first job and have a heart attack at the salary?  Maybe i'm misunderstanding?

7.  If we were to give them the pay rise they want, how is this funded? Would taxation not go up to cover this? If so, would this bother people who are struggling themselves, and would the "pro pay rise" people be aware of this?

8.  Yes cost of living has gone through the roof, it's around 12% isnt it?  But most people if they received a rise, got nowhere near this, so really most have had a pay cut?

 

9.  If we offered to up their salary 6 grand but change their hours to 8-5 with only 5 weeks annual leave, would they take it?

I'm keen to really try and understand both sides here

 

Amusingly (not sure if a wind up), but i did hear that some kids (home alone) were given cookery homework and told to cook a quiche today.  Not safe for them to be at school, but safe home alone cooking using the oven!

 

 

Edited September 22, 2022 by somewhatdamaged

[2112]

18 minutes ago, fredtosser said:

82% of NASUWT teachers have apparently voted in favour of strike action

I disagree with what they are doing but it’s their right. Let’s face it, withdrawing labour is a last resort of which IOMG were well aware of, and the outcomes of any actions, and it’s consequences on children’s education, they will be responsible for. 

[manxman1980]

3 hours ago, P.K. said:

So can that of the teachers....

Teachers are there to teach. They are not there to discipline unruly pupils. That's the job of the parents. So there are processes to deal with them.

I fully appreciate how you have to pay the market rate. If you don't then your staff will leave to organisations that DO pay the going rate.

So then you have to go through all the recruitment pain. And guess what? You won't recruit anyone unless you advertise at the going rate. Which means, after lots of pain, that you end up paying it anyway!

You are avoiding the question which was in response to your suggestion that they should be paid on output.

What output are you going to measure?

As for being there to teach... even going back over a decade I know of reception teachers who were having to deal with children who were not toilet trained.  I also know of one case where there were two social workers in the class to support two children...

The experience of many teachers is now far removed from what you are imagining.

3 minutes ago, somewhatdamaged said:

Teachers work a 30 hour week contractually (i understand they can work over that with marking work etc)

I think you mean they are contracted to 30 hours teaching.  They will also have at least another 5 hours within their contract for preparatory work.

Most still work over and above those hours without time off in lieu or overtime payments.

As for the holidays they are often expected to be in school during the school holidays for training or preparing for the new year.

Those holidays are also at the most expensive times of the year without the ability to take time off when cheaper holidays are available for obvious reasons.

[2112]

18 minutes ago, somewhatdamaged said:

So i've been trying to sit on the fence about this and see it from both sides, even though it has affected me with kids having to stay home etc. Interested to hear the takes on what i've been hearing from other people, and whether these things are correct or not:-

1. Teachers work a 30 hour week contractually (i understand they can work over that with marking work etc)

2. They get 14 weeks holiday a year, fully paid

3.  Salary ranges from 27-44k on average (and i would assume they come in on the low end)

4. Over lockdown (from what i saw), most teachers did almost nothing. We were given VERY little work for the kids (or just told to log onto BBC Bitesize and find stuff to do!!), work often wasn't even looked at/marked and we had to pretty much teach them ourselves, whilst also working full time jobs remotely. They were also fully paid, yet myself and my wife had to sometimes use annual leave to give them the best attention / assistance we could.  Yes i know COVID wasn't their fault, but we saw very little being done by them, other than days some teachers worked (at Onchan primary) to help the vulnerable children (which incidentally the current strike action is not offering)

5. I'm not sure what the pay rise they were offered is, but i know that most employers have offered a lousy pay rise (as they often will!), citing the same "costs" that employees are having to bear (increased heating etc).  The teachers were offered the same as the UK plus an extra 1%? With our lower taxes, is that better? Or do the increased house prices on the IOM counter this?

6.  They are roughly aware of the salary they will be paid when taking the job on (or more specifically choosing this as career), and if it's not enough (which i fully appreciate it may not be), they could try and move into a private school teaching or take a career elsewhere? Surely you don't spend years getting qualified, and then get your first job and have a heart attack at the salary?  Maybe i'm misunderstanding?

7.  If we were to give them the pay rise they want, how is this funded? Would taxation not go up to cover this? If so, would this bother people who are struggling themselves, and would the "pro pay rise" people be aware of this?

8.  Yes cost of living has gone through the roof, it's around 12% isnt it?  But most people if they received a rise, got nowhere near this, so really most have had a pay cut?

I'm keen to really try and understand both sides here

 

 

Good counter argument made, and balanced. Whatever the case, rights and wrongs, IOMG haven’t covered themselves in glory. Perhaps savings and efficiency savings could be made, which could be put towards teachers pay. I feel that IOMG aren’t prepared to look at cost cutting measures, prepared to live within their means and are totally intoxicated on taxpayers funds. This and the constant use of the reserves can’t carry on.

 

Edited September 22, 2022 by 2112

[somewhatdamaged]

Thanks for the reply manxman1980.  So basically 30 hours then with 5 hours for preparatory work.

Is a teacher teaching all day? For example, you're a Geography teacher, do you teach that 7 hours a day, or are the free hours in between used for this preparatory work or marking etc? If so, are they then given too much, and this is why they say they are having to do this "out of hours" (which i don't disagree with, as i do see the occasional email come in to my daughters school inbox at 23:00 or later!)

Edited September 22, 2022 by somewhatdamaged

[DrunkenMonkey]

51 minutes ago, somewhatdamaged said:

So i've been trying to sit on the fence about this and see it from both sides, even though it has affected me with kids having to stay home etc. Interested to hear the takes on what i've been hearing from other people, and whether these things are correct or not:-

1. Teachers work a 30 hour week contractually (i understand they can work over that with marking work etc)

On paper, yes. In reality, no.

51 minutes ago, somewhatdamaged said:

2. They get 14 weeks holiday a year, fully paid (plus the new extra day at Xmas)

Teachers do not get paid holidays. They get paid for their contracted hours, pro rata throughout the year.

51 minutes ago, somewhatdamaged said:

3.  Salary ranges from 27-44k on average (and i would assume they come in on the low end)

Many Manx teachers are on unqualified pay scale earning as low as 20k

51 minutes ago, somewhatdamaged said:

4. Over lockdown (from what i saw), most teachers did almost nothing. We were given VERY little work for the kids (or just told to log onto BBC Bitesize and find stuff to do!!), work often wasn't even looked at/marked and we had to pretty much teach them ourselves, whilst also working full time jobs remotely. They were also fully paid, yet myself and my wife had to sometimes use annual leave to give them the best attention / assistance we could.  Yes i know COVID wasn't their fault, but we saw very little being done by them, other than days some teachers worked (at Onchan primary) to help the vulnerable children (which incidentally the current strike action is not offering)

All teachers were working full time over all lockdowns, most with their own children at home too.

51 minutes ago, somewhatdamaged said:

5. I'm not sure what the pay rise they were offered is, but i know that most employers have offered a lousy pay rise (as they often will!), citing the same "costs" that employees are having to bear (increased heating etc).  The teachers were offered the same as the UK plus an extra 1%? With our lower taxes, is that better? Or do the increased house prices on the IOM counter this?

The deal offered did not address the 30% pay cut teachers have received over the past 10 years (pre cost of living crisis). Teachers are now attending food banks and working 2 or 3 jobs at once to make ends meet. I saw my daughter's teacher waiting tables during the summer to earn enough to feed her family.

51 minutes ago, somewhatdamaged said:

6.  They are roughly aware of the salary they will be paid when taking the job on (or more specifically choosing this as career), and if it's not enough (which i fully appreciate it may not be), they could try and move into a private school teaching or take a career elsewhere? Surely you don't spend years getting qualified, and then get your first job and have a heart attack at the salary?  Maybe i'm misunderstanding?

The problem isn't wether they  understand what they are getting into or not regarding the job. It's when they get here from the UK. Most will stick it for a year or two before realising it isn't financially sustainable to stay on the island, so they leave.

51 minutes ago, somewhatdamaged said:

7.  If we were to give them the pay rise they want, how is this funded? Would taxation not go up to cover this? If so, would this bother people who are struggling themselves, and would the "pro pay rise" people be aware of this?

I'd pay more tax if the government could prove my taxes were being used properly (hoho).

51 minutes ago, somewhatdamaged said:

8.  Yes cost of living has gone through the roof, it's around 12% isnt it?  But most people if they received a rise, got nowhere near this, so really most have had a pay cut?

That's right, most people should be organising and kicking off at their employers too!

51 minutes ago, somewhatdamaged said:

 

9.  If we offered to up their salary 6 grand but change their hours to 8-5 with only 5 weeks annual leave, would they take it?

Maybe? Maybe the DESC should offer this!

51 minutes ago, somewhatdamaged said:

I'm keen to really try and understand both sides here

 

Amusingly (not sure if a wind up), but i did hear that some kids (home alone) were given cookery homework and told to cook a quiche today.  Not safe for them to be at school, but safe home alone cooking using the oven!

 

 

 

[manxman1980]

23 minutes ago, somewhatdamaged said:

Thanks for the reply manxman1980.  So basically 30 hours then with 5 hours for preparatory work.

Is a teacher teaching all day? For example, you're a Geography teacher, do you teach that 7 hours a day, or are the free hours in between used for this preparatory work or marking etc? If so, are they then given too much, and this is why they say they are having to do this "out of hours" (which i don't disagree with, as i do see the occasional email come in to my daughters school inbox at 23:00 or later!)

I don't have the specific details to give you a full answer but the contract will likely specify either a percentage split or a number of hours per year.  There is likely to be a difference between primary and secondary school teachers and also between a 'standard' teacher and one who has additional duties such as a 'Head of XYZ' who will probably have additional hours for work outside the classroom such as management activities.  

Alternatively the contract may just specify a set number of hours to be worked each year which doesn't then differentiate between teaching and non-teaching hours and you may just see a clause about working sufficient additional hours to perform their work professionally (a fairly standard clause in most contracts of employment in public and private sectors).

Perhaps someone who works as a teacher or deals with teachers contracts could give a more specific answer?

In my experience teachers are typically on the school premises well before school starts and will often stay beyond the what we think of as the end of the school day (Arriving around 8.00am and leaving around 5.00pm).  Many will then take marking and reporting writing home with them.  Those with families may work late into the evening to try and spend time with their own families (I know people in the private sector do this too before anyone starts) which is probably why you receive emails at 23:00 or later.