Asthehills Posted November 7, 2022 Share Posted November 7, 2022 43 minutes ago, Meoir Shee said: That is a really interesting way of thinking about it, one I hadn’t considered before. Using your own figures, a bit high maybe but we’ll run with them: £46k per annum 39 teaching weeks 30 lessons (hours?) per week c20 pupils per class on average? (Guesstimate) = £1.97 per pupil per hour in ‘teacher cost’, call it £2 for easy reckoning. I know there are on costs etc but let’s keep it simple. As a modern, western, developed society is roughly £2 per pupil per hour good or bad value? If you compare it to other modern, western developed societies I am inclined to think you will find that it is actually really bad value. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meoir Shee Posted November 7, 2022 Share Posted November 7, 2022 3 minutes ago, Asthehills said: If you compare it to other modern, western developed societies I am inclined to think you will find that it is actually really bad value. OK, fair enough, as always you are entitled to your opinion, but it does seem a shame that as a society we value the education of kids as less than £2 per hour per pupil for the direct teacher cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asthehills Posted November 7, 2022 Share Posted November 7, 2022 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Meoir Shee said: OK, fair enough, as always you are entitled to your opinion, but it does seem a shame that as a society we value the education of kids as less than £2 per hour per pupil for the direct teacher cost. What do you think the same calculation would come out at in any British city? Let’s try Manchester, blackpool or Liverpool as they are the closest to us. Edited November 7, 2022 by Asthehills 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meoir Shee Posted November 7, 2022 Share Posted November 7, 2022 Just now, Asthehills said: What do you think the same sim would come out at in any British city? Let’s try Manchester, blackpool or Liverpool as they are the closest to us. I honestly have no idea, it might come out as even less, wouldn’t surprise me. I wouldn’t like to make any comparisons whatsoever with Blackpool, Liverpool or Manchester as they are widely regarded as amongst the most deprived areas in England. I really wouldn’t want to get involved in a race to the bottom. I hope, as a society, we are better than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asthehills Posted November 7, 2022 Share Posted November 7, 2022 4 minutes ago, Meoir Shee said: I honestly have no idea, it might come out as even less, wouldn’t surprise me. I wouldn’t like to make any comparisons whatsoever with Blackpool, Liverpool or Manchester as they are widely regarded as amongst the most deprived areas in England. I really wouldn’t want to get involved in a race to the bottom. I hope, as a society, we are better than that. Ok. London Fringe. How do class sizes and number of teaching staff compare to there, bearing in mind that NASUWT have turned down a 4 percent premium over what the teachers there get despite the house prices being the closest that could be found in Britain. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BriT Posted November 7, 2022 Share Posted November 7, 2022 25 minutes ago, Asthehills said: If you compare it to other modern, western developed societies I am inclined to think you will find that it is actually really bad value. Two absolutely raging teacher bashers. This really is awful to watch. Has anyone mentioned sunbathing yet? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbie Posted November 7, 2022 Share Posted November 7, 2022 (edited) 59 minutes ago, Banker said: Or put in another way £36 per hour working only 195 days per year , a maximum of 6.48 hours per day Teachers can be directed by the headteacher to work for up to a maximum of 1,265 hours over 195 days of the year. The £46K figure is (according to Julie Edge) the maximum pay, not the average pay. It is also what is proposed assuming the current offer is accepted. Current figure is lower (around £43k I think she said) But, for the sake of argument, if you assume the average is around £41k, then the hourly rate is around £32.50 and hour, and of course that doesn't take account of any preparatory work for lessons, other duties outside lessons etc. So it is about 60% of what a plumber can expect to earn hourly, and on a par with a window cleaner. And don't forget, teachers generally require a degree so have all the student debt to pay back. The other point worth making is that if you do the calculation that way, it assumes that all of the time off is unpaid, so people can't really moan about that then. Edited November 7, 2022 by Newbie 3 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asthehills Posted November 7, 2022 Share Posted November 7, 2022 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Newbie said: The £46K figure is (according to Julie Edge) the maximum pay, not the average pay. It is also what is proposed assuming the current offer is accepted. Current figure is lower (around £43k I think she said) But, for the sake of argument, if you assume the average is around £41k, then the hourly rate is around £32.50 and hour, and of course that doesn't take account of any preparatory work for lessons, other duties outside lessons etc. So it is about 60% of what a plumber can expect to earn hourly, and on a par with a window cleaner. And don't forget, teachers generally require a degree so have all the student debt to pay back. How much does a teacher pay their accountant? How much VAT do they pay? How much are their tools of the trade? Don’t forget to include the van and fuel, plus the business insurance for aforementioned vehicle. How much does it cost them to pay their public liability insurance? How much are their banking fees? How many hours do you think a self employed plumber works and how many days off a year do you think they get? D- must try harder Edited November 7, 2022 by Asthehills Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meoir Shee Posted November 7, 2022 Share Posted November 7, 2022 11 minutes ago, Asthehills said: Ok. London Fringe. How do class sizes and number of teaching staff compare to there, bearing in mind that NASUWT have turned down a 4 percent premium over what the teachers there get despite the house prices being the closest that could be found in Britain. I have told you I have no idea. I am unaware of class sizes and numbers of teaching staff over 300 miles away. I am also unaware of the house prices for the London Fringe area as it covers a vast area and must have significant variations in property prices. I do not feel the need to compare class sizes and property prices in Blackpool, Aigburth, Didsbury, Maidenhead, Slough or Watford with the IoM. I have simply commented, politely yet again, that it is shame that society (and you appear to be a major protagonist) values the education of children as less than £2 per pupil per hour direct teacher cost. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banker Posted November 7, 2022 Author Share Posted November 7, 2022 Just now, Meoir Shee said: I have told you I have no idea. I am unaware of class sizes and numbers of teaching staff over 300 miles away. I am also unaware of the house prices for the London Fringe area as it covers a vast area and must have significant variations in property prices. I do not feel the need to compare class sizes and property prices in Blackpool, Aigburth, Didsbury, Maidenhead, Slough or Watford with the IoM. I have simply commented, politely yet again, that it is shame that society (and you appear to be a major protagonist) values the education of children as less than £2 per pupil per hour direct teacher cost. You should know as a teacher & Union member Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Lamb Posted November 7, 2022 Share Posted November 7, 2022 2 minutes ago, Asthehills said: How much does a teacher pay their accountant? How much VAT do they pay? How much are their tools of the trade? How much does it cost them to pay their public liability insurance? How much are their banking fees? How many hours do you think a self employed plumber works and how many days off a year do you think they get? D- must try harder Are you seriously putting plumbers forward as hard done by? What next, airport firefighters? MLCs ? lottery winners? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asthehills Posted November 7, 2022 Share Posted November 7, 2022 1 minute ago, Meoir Shee said: I have told you I have no idea. I am unaware of class sizes and numbers of teaching staff over 300 miles away. I am also unaware of the house prices for the London Fringe area as it covers a vast area and must have significant variations in property prices. I do not feel the need to compare class sizes and property prices in Blackpool, Aigburth, Didsbury, Maidenhead, Slough or Watford with the IoM. I have simply commented, politely yet again, that it is shame that society (and you appear to be a major protagonist) values the education of children as less than £2 per pupil per hour direct teacher cost. Ok. Try this one. What do you value an hour of treatment from someone who has been working 50 hours a week at 02:30 in the morning at. In ICU? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbie Posted November 7, 2022 Share Posted November 7, 2022 4 minutes ago, Asthehills said: D- must try harder Harsh. I'm doing my best but we all have different strengths and weaknesses! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asthehills Posted November 7, 2022 Share Posted November 7, 2022 1 minute ago, Harry Lamb said: Are you seriously putting plumbers forward as hard done by? What next, airport firefighters? MLCs ? lottery winners? No. I am pointing out the stupidity of a direct comparison of hourly rates Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meoir Shee Posted November 7, 2022 Share Posted November 7, 2022 2 minutes ago, Banker said: You should know as a teacher & Union member Please, just for once, explain that statement. Why on earth would someone who lives and works on the IoM have any interest in class sizes and teacher numbers in Slough? Although I quite liked ‘The Office’. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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