Happier diner Posted October 21, 2023 Share Posted October 21, 2023 8 hours ago, Omobono said: was a proper feasability study carried out in the first place as to its viability , restrictions on use and not forgetting the eye watering cost , it would be interesting to know who was actually looking after our interests during these (if any) discussions , and we still don't know the final construction , dredging or servicing cost, or how much the staff and operating costs are going to be ? thats my point ! That's correct. Ultimate accountabily though rests with the government. The whole concept and cost estimate was unrealistic and even worse that they then passed on an impossible task to the said 'muppets' made success a pipedream.. Started badly, got worse. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Buggane Posted October 21, 2023 Share Posted October 21, 2023 Whilst a dwindling population is not in Alfie boy's master plan it has its upside, we will end up only needing one of the windmilly things we used to have hanging outside tourist tat shops (remember them fondly with there non pc saucy postcards) to supply the islands power and Ramsey cottage hospital will be large enough to service the whole island 🙂 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cissolt Posted October 21, 2023 Share Posted October 21, 2023 12 hours ago, Happier diner said: I've got no idea. I was merely pointing out to the poster that just because a UK 'contractor' is used, that is no guarantee of success. The responsibility still lies with DOI for running to comin asking for more money every year. As was pointed out in the media, there were many opportunities to pull the plug but DOI kept going back with the begging bowl. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happier diner Posted October 21, 2023 Share Posted October 21, 2023 28 minutes ago, cissolt said: The responsibility still lies with DOI for running to comin asking for more money every year. As was pointed out in the media, there were many opportunities to pull the plug but DOI kept going back with the begging bowl. The DOI do what they are told. What else can they do? They are a department of government, where else can they get money? In a large civil contract you have no option to pay, if you did not pay you would be in breach of contract. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gladys Posted October 21, 2023 Share Posted October 21, 2023 19 minutes ago, Happier diner said: In a large civil contract you have no option to pay, if you did not pay you would be in breach of contract. You keep saying that, but that is surely only in respect of works in accordance with the contract? That is the point really, were any of the additional works per the contract or approved before the additional funding was agreed with Treasury? If the latter, then either the contract and specs were not specific enough, or someone exceeded their authority. The contract should not have been an open cheque book to increase the costs from £20mn to where it is now (even if we now know the final bill) without the ability to terminate, renegotiate or adjust the contract as what was needed to complete was significantly different to what was originally agreed. There must have been a point where what appeared to be straightforward at the start was identified as being more complex and costly and at that point there should have been scope to renegotiate including abandoning, even with a penalty. 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happier diner Posted October 21, 2023 Share Posted October 21, 2023 (edited) 45 minutes ago, Gladys said: You keep saying that, but that is surely only in respect of works in accordance with the contract? That is the point really, were any of the additional works per the contract or approved before the additional funding was agreed with Treasury? If the latter, then either the contract and specs were not specific enough, or someone exceeded their authority. The contract should not have been an open cheque book to increase the costs from £20mn to where it is now (even if we now know the final bill) without the ability to terminate, renegotiate or adjust the contract as what was needed to complete was significantly different to what was originally agreed. There must have been a point where what appeared to be straightforward at the start was identified as being more complex and costly and at that point there should have been scope to renegotiate including abandoning, even with a penalty. I keep saying it because it's fact. Like I have told you many times, if the NEC project manager approves a payment you have to pay. The NEC project manager is independent. You can keep saying you shouldn't have to.....but you have no choice. End of. Edited October 21, 2023 by Happier diner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyWolf Posted October 21, 2023 Share Posted October 21, 2023 Maybe that Gawne fellow up at Manx radio can explain how it went so badly wrong as he was right in the mix as head of D.O.I. How can all the consultants and architects along with the highly paid civil servants get it so wrong, the same thing is goner happen for sure if they build the windy miller farm up at Earystane me thinks. Isle of (no accountability ) Man. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gladys Posted October 21, 2023 Share Posted October 21, 2023 26 minutes ago, Happier diner said: I keep saying it because it's fact. Like I have told you many times, if the NEC project manager approves a payment you have to pay. The NEC project manager is independent. You can keep saying you shouldn't have to.....but you have no choice. End of. But the NEC project manager cannot approve a payment for works not in accordance with the contract, surely. So, if works are proposed outside of the contract, will the PM just tell them to crack on, or go back to the client to ask for approval before giving the go ahead? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A fool and his money..... Posted October 21, 2023 Share Posted October 21, 2023 9 hours ago, GD4ELI said: That's exactly it - you have no idea. Doesn't stop you posting a ridiculous argument. Is it a ridiculous argument though. You seemed to be suggesting that using a UK contractor was a way to guarantee a successful project, letting the Manx government run the job a guarantee of failure. A bit of a short sighted and simplistic view if you ask me. How's your HS2 going. Fuck ups are not unusual where high value projects are concerned. We should do everything we can to anticipate and avoid as many potential problems as possible, I'm not sure national oneupmanship is the best way to go about this. Especially as most UK wind farms aren't even built by UK contractors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Onchan Posted October 21, 2023 Share Posted October 21, 2023 https://news.sky.com/story/proposed-north-yorkshire-fracking-site-becomes-source-of-clean-geothermal-energy-12988955 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happier diner Posted October 21, 2023 Share Posted October 21, 2023 2 hours ago, Gladys said: But the NEC project manager cannot approve a payment for works not in accordance with the contract, surely. So, if works are proposed outside of the contract, will the PM just tell them to crack on, or go back to the client to ask for approval before giving the go ahead? No he can't. What makes you think he/she did? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gladys Posted October 21, 2023 Share Posted October 21, 2023 19 minutes ago, Happier diner said: No he can't. What makes you think he/she did? That is the point, there were opportunities not to proceed with the additional works without breaching the contract. Admittedly you reach a tipping point where the money sunk already justifies continuing to the bitter end. I am not talking about reneging on payments due for work undertaken, that would be daft and unsustainable. But at some point someone must have given the go ahead for the additional works beyond the scope of the original contract. Did they do that without Treasury approval and at each point where additional works had to be approved, did anyone do a cost/benefit analysis to decide whether continuing was worthwhile? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarndyce Posted October 21, 2023 Share Posted October 21, 2023 Oh, get a room, you two! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two-lane Posted October 21, 2023 Share Posted October 21, 2023 10 minutes ago, Jarndyce said: Oh, get a room, you two! Who's paying? Is an NEC contract manager involved? Satisfaction guaranteed part of the contract? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happier diner Posted October 21, 2023 Share Posted October 21, 2023 26 minutes ago, Gladys said: That is the point, there were opportunities not to proceed with the additional works without breaching the contract. Admittedly you reach a tipping point where the money sunk already justifies continuing to the bitter end. I am not talking about reneging on payments due for work undertaken, that would be daft and unsustainable. But at some point someone must have given the go ahead for the additional works beyond the scope of the original contract. Did they do that without Treasury approval and at each point where additional works had to be approved, did anyone do a cost/benefit analysis to decide whether continuing was worthwhile? There were no opportunities to end without breaching the contract. You can terminate a contract but you cannot remove yourself from the terms you signed up to. It's a NEC3 Option B. Cost reimbursable. Therefore you become liable for the all the costs associated with termination. That could extend as far as the contractor making staff redundant. Of course if you do that you have no ferry terminal. I'm not saying whether to DOI were right or wrong to persevere, only explaing how it works. If you don' t believe me the you can look for yourself. Just Google NEC 3 contract . Option B. Based upon bill of quantities. It surprisingly not that complicated. You can come to your conclusion. Conclusions have have come to for over 30 years. what room shall we have. 😄😄 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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