Climate Change Progress Report

[The Phantom]

19 minutes ago, ellanvannin2010 said:

What happened to the students climate protests outside Tynpotworld and their Friday strikes?.

Tynwald shut down the free wifi so they all left. 

[Stu Peters]

I got an email from a constituent earlier which made an interesting point. The whole climate change strategy is based on 'cafeteria science' where you can pick the bits you like and ignore those you don't like (or that don't further your ideology). But putting aside the premise of there being a 'man made climate emergency' (that's the bit I deny) that we can reverse by going back to the stone age, I'm all for cleaner energy, cleaner air and water and cleaner living.

But as others have mentioned in this thread, we're also being sold on renewables being an almost 'free' source of energy. So here's a question: given that the green lobby was boasting a year or so ago about how over 90% (IIRC) of UK electric was being generated from windfarms on a significant number of days, what cost benefit has that had for UK consumers? Oh, that's right: none! Perhaps 'they' need to recoup the infrastructure costs before passing on the savings? So are the cost arguments honest? Since I can fly and hell is probably full of insufferable snowflakes I expect UK leccy prices to fall like a stone anytime soon...

[2bees]

On 1/25/2023 at 7:03 PM, Amadeus said:

Much talk tonight. Very interest. 
 

 

I went to this, it was very good. There were lots of good people there (as well as those already mentioned). 

[Happier diner]

25 minutes ago, Stu Peters said:

I got an email from a constituent earlier which made an interesting point. The whole climate change strategy is based on 'cafeteria science' where you can pick the bits you like and ignore those you don't like (or that don't further your ideology). But putting aside the premise of there being a 'man made climate emergency' (that's the bit I deny) that we can reverse by going back to the stone age, I'm all for cleaner energy, cleaner air and water and cleaner living.

But as others have mentioned in this thread, we're also being sold on renewables being an almost 'free' source of energy. So here's a question: given that the green lobby was boasting a year or so ago about how over 90% (IIRC) of UK electric was being generated from windfarms on a significant number of days, what cost benefit has that had for UK consumers? Oh, that's right: none! Perhaps 'they' need to recoup the infrastructure costs before passing on the savings? So are the cost arguments honest? Since I can fly and hell is probably full of insufferable snowflakes I expect UK leccy prices to fall like a stone anytime soon...

There is no free energy. Yes, as you say, wind turbines have to be paid for and then maintained. They are still though £ for £ the cheapest form of generating electricity by some way. 

[Gladys]

20 minutes ago, Happier diner said:

There is no free energy. Yes, as you say, wind turbines have to be paid for and then maintained. They are still though £ for £ the cheapest form of generating electricity by some way. 

What does £ for £ mean in this context though? 

[Happier diner]

1 minute ago, Gladys said:

What does £ for £ mean in this context though? 

Most MW per pound spent in capital and running costs. They are about £2M per MW installed. In some places solar gives the best return. I cant imagine that would be the case here though. 

[The Phantom]

Just now, Happier diner said:

Most MW per pound spent in capital and running costs. They are about £2M per MW installed. In some places solar gives the best return. I cant imagine that would be the case here though. 

Surprisingly few, I think wind is always better, but some places just aren't windy and are sunny.  Also solar is generally less obtrusive (you'd probably rather your neighbour has solar panels rather than a massive wind turbine). 

I've worked on a few projects in Kenya and they've all been wind; when you'd think it would be pretty sunny there.

Alot of the veggis that you'll buy in Tesco during the winter are grown in greenhouses in the Rift Valley in Kenya.  Most of them are actually run off geo-thermal power generation and heating when required.

[TheTeapot]

1 hour ago, Stu Peters said:

 

But as others have mentioned in this thread, we're also being sold on renewables being an almost 'free' source of energy. So here's a question: given that the green lobby was boasting a year or so ago about how over 90% (IIRC) of UK electric was being generated from windfarms on a significant number of days, what cost benefit has that had for UK consumers? Oh, that's right: none! Perhaps 'they' need to recoup the infrastructure costs before passing on the savings? So are the cost arguments honest? Since I can fly and hell is probably full of insufferable snowflakes I expect UK leccy prices to fall like a stone anytime soon...

In the UK the energy sector is privatised. For some reason that I do not understand companies built wind turbines under contracts that meant they could sell the electric for the same price as electricity generated from gas. So while electricity is generated for a much lower price by the 'free' wind, the savings are not passed on to the consumer, but instead larger profits are pocketed by the suppliers*. Maybe you already knew this and are asking your question in bad faith? Or maybe you didn't, and simply don't know what you're talking about? I dunno.

*Note the term suppliers here means companies that actually generate electricity, not just one of those that is just a sales team that 20+ of went bust.

[Happier diner]

1 hour ago, TheTeapot said:

In the UK the energy sector is privatised. For some reason that I do not understand companies built wind turbines under contracts that meant they could sell the electric for the same price as electricity generated from gas. So while electricity is generated for a much lower price by the 'free' wind, the savings are not passed on to the consumer, but instead larger profits are pocketed by the suppliers*. Maybe you already knew this and are asking your question in bad faith? Or maybe you didn't, and simply don't know what you're talking about? I dunno.

*Note the term suppliers here means companies that actually generate electricity, not just one of those that is just a sales team that 20+ of went bust.

Electricity that is sold commercially will have a wholesale rate. The buyer is not bothered where it comes from so why would renewable be any cheaper on the open market? 

[TheTeapot]

27 minutes ago, Happier diner said:

Electricity that is sold commercially will have a wholesale rate.

Yes, this is the problem, the rate is fixed to the price of gas, regardless of what anything actually costs.

Quote

The buyer is not bothered where it comes from so why would renewable be any cheaper on the open market? 

Well, quite a lot of buyers are bothered these days, what with carbon target bollocks and that, and certainly there has been times (I haven't looked recently cos I don't care) when you could buy 'green' electric on the open market, mostly scottish hydro. 

 

[Happier diner]

1 hour ago, TheTeapot said:

Yes, this is the problem, the rate is fixed to the price of gas, regardless of what anything actually costs.

Well, quite a lot of buyers are bothered these days, what with carbon target bollocks and that, and certainly there has been times (I haven't looked recently cos I don't care) when you could buy 'green' electric on the open market, mostly scottish hydro. 

 

Kind of agree with you..ish

The rate is not fixed to the price of gas. It's fixed to what the market dictates. Yes, gas is still king, I agree. But the new sources are not insignificant anymore. 

[hissingsid]

So where are they going to put the turbines?   All things undesirable usually end up in Jurby but is that fair ?   All that noise if one makes a noise equivalent to a chainsaw it will be far from peaceful and the dead birds will be piling up let alone the bats.   How many will be needed to make a difference ?     100 ? 1000 ?   these are the questions that need answers.   But we must not let practicalities get in the way of an expensive dream must we ?   

[NoTail]

I stood underneath one a few years ago. I don't remember much noise, just a swishing sound. There were no dead birds lying around. 

[cissolt]

8 hours ago, hissingsid said:

So where are they going to put the turbines?   All things undesirable usually end up in Jurby but is that fair ?   All that noise if one makes a noise equivalent to a chainsaw it will be far from peaceful and the dead birds will be piling up let alone the bats.   How many will be needed to make a difference ?     100 ? 1000 ?   these are the questions that need answers.   But we must not let practicalities get in the way of an expensive dream must we ?   

Snuff the winds is one location indicated.  I guess the issues of kids causing silt in the raggart have been fixed.

[Happier diner]

8 hours ago, hissingsid said:

So where are they going to put the turbines?   All things undesirable usually end up in Jurby but is that fair ?   All that noise if one makes a noise equivalent to a chainsaw it will be far from peaceful and the dead birds will be piling up let alone the bats.   How many will be needed to make a difference ?     100 ? 1000 ?   these are the questions that need answers.   But we must not let practicalities get in the way of an expensive dream must we ?   

Have you any pictures of dead birds under wind turbines? Is it a myth? Birds are not stupid.

What makes you think it will be Jurby?

Like @no tailsays. They dont make hardly any noise at all. Maybe a teeny bit when it's not windy. When its windy any noise is masked by the actual wind