More uselessness from DBC

[Non-Believer]

39 minutes ago, finlo said:

By having Christmas every other year?

By charging for a 2nd, extra collection?

Ker-ching. Council bar tab covered for another year 👍

[Viddy well]

14 hours ago, John Wright said:

In a democracy you have a choice of media and a choice whether or not to access the media. My personal view is you’ve a duty to keep yourself informed, but it’s a choice. 

If you choose not to then you shouldn’t expect to be spoon fed, or complain when it comes back and bites you.

I agree with you if the media is competent, has universal patronage and the protagonists aren't opaque, but that's not the case is it? For example, I can find a consultation by the Council on dogs running around Douglas Head from 2016, but I can't find a consultation on fortnightly collections. Neither can you apparently. 

Shouldn't it have gone something like this?

1) Send a letter to each person on the electoral roll with a Douglas postcode and in an envelope marked "important - this envelope contains information about the way we intend to collect your trash in the future. If you produce trash, you need to read this."

2) That letter says, "Ten years ago, the Government published a ten year strategy to tackle waste. Nothing has been done about that since, but we're a new and enthusiastic administration and we're keen to prove our green credentials. It's really not good enough that you don't take recycling seriously: Douglas only recycles 5% of its waste, which isn't aligned with the Government's targets*. Therefore we're proposing to force you to recycle by cutting your bin emptying service in half. We realize that change can be difficult and local democracy is important to us (we are, after all, your elected representatives) so we reckon you'll want to have your say. Tell us what you think about our ideas and let us know if there's anything we can do to make it easier for you to adapt if the changes go ahead. Thanks, your Council "

3) Read the responses to the consultation. If they are generally supportive, or the response rate is trivial, then proceed with the plan, otherwise carefully study what it is that people don't like about your proposed plan and see what accommodations you can make.

4) Once mitigations have been implemented based on the feedback (i.e. the poor sods in flats with communal bins, the incontinence pad and nappy crowd, the large families, and the climate-change sceptics/those who need a friendly lecture on the importance of the green agenda) ... ONLY THEN ... introduce your change, and see how it goes on the presumption there are bound to be a few that have fallen between the cracks and need support.

* there are no government targets

 

Is that rocket science?

And as an aside, it's possible to produce results by brute force. 5% to 15% is impressive until you take into account that the unintended consequences are causing havoc and have to be netted against gains. For example, I can cut traffic pollution in Douglas to nil if you'll just listen to my proposal to exclude traffic within a five mile radius of the Town Hall. And who doesn't want to save the children from asthma and respiratory illnesses - that's a worthwhile cause isn't it?

Edited December 1, 2022 by Viddy well

[Happier diner]

1 hour ago, finlo said:

By having Christmas every other year?

Wish I had thought of that one. Made me smile. 

[Viddy well]

1 hour ago, NoTailT said:

I don't live in Douglas but some family in the UK have fortnightly bin collections. But they have 4 different coloured bins. Is that what DBC has done? Or still the same single general waste?

You must be thinking if this kind of thing:

No, we don't have that kind of capacity. We do have nifty tubs that you can stack in the hallway between fortnightly collections.

 

Edited December 1, 2022 by Viddy well

[Happier diner]

1 hour ago, Viddy well said:

You must be thinking if this kind of thing:

No, we don't have that kind of capacity. We do have nifty tubs that you can stack in the hallway between fortnightly collections.

 

This would be the way to do it right. The nifty bins are not living in my hallway. 

[Gladys]

2 minutes ago, offshoremanxman said:

Tiny, tiny boxes not additional recycling bins. 

Yes, and I have said consistently that they are not fit for purpose.  

[Viddy well]

1 hour ago, Gladys said:

Yes, and I have said consistently that they are not fit for purpose.  

But you've also been a tireless standard-bearer on this forum for the change to fortnightly collections. I'm the first to criticize ad hominem attacks, but can I respectfully ask what's got you to so consistently post in favor of these changes despite the mounting evidence that its implementation is a train wreck?

I know we've clashed lances in the past about my suggestion that the Isle of Man should be more unfriendly to pedophiles than the UK (and I respect your opinion even if I disagree with it), but putting that aside, why the cheer-leading on this issue?

Edited December 1, 2022 by Viddy well
grocer's apostrophe

[Gladys]

12 minutes ago, Viddy well said:

But you've also been a tireless standard-bearer on this forum for the change to fortnightly collections. I'm the first to criticize ad hominem attacks, but can I respectfully ask what's got you to so consistently post in favor of these changes despite the mounting evidence that it's implementation is a train wreck?

I know we've clashed lances in the past about my suggestion that the Isle of Man should be more unfriendly to pedophiles than the UK (and I respect your opinion even if I disagree with it), but putting that aside, why the cheer-leading on this issue?

Very simply, I was aware of the changes, thought there was plenty of publicity and those shouting that there was none were wrong.  I also thought that the personal attacks on here of Amadeus were completely uncalled for and abusive.

It is not perfect, but it needs to be given a chance and for real lessons to be learnt (and there are things that do not work, but only by trialling,  can those things be put right) so that the whole concept works for all. 

I have also said many times that I have experienced exactly these changes over 20 years ago; you just got on with it and they worked.   It was a London Borough,  they had fixed their policy and their job was to implement it. There was little scope for 'but, but' arguments. I had a look on their website this evening and it is a very comprehensive and useful site on the whole topic of recycling and waste collection, but they have had well over 20 years of experience. 

Far from being a standard bearer, after that experience I kind of understood it would not be 'waste armageddon', but it needed people to change their behaviour and engage with it.  

Then we had the roll out of increasingly specious arguments against it, and each time one objection was responded to, along comes another, often deteriorating to personal attacks.

The experience I had 20 plus years ago was of a local authority confident in their role to do their job, and of an electorate understanding that is what they should do.  It was a mature relationship.  I am sure there were bits that didn't work and there were adjustments to how it was implemented.  But rather than being expected to cave in to objections, they have obviously dealt with them and there is now what seems to be a constructive implementation.

 

 

[majkul]

8 hours ago, Albert Tatlock said:

Our bin is never that full, because I take a small bag of rubbish on my walks. But it's now getting harder to find a public bin that's not overflowing. 

[Banky]

4 hours ago, Gladys said:

And recycling boxes. 

What some places have in the UK is a food waste bin.  Not sure what happens to it. 

 

Eta oops

Around here it's not collected anymore, due to most folks using them for keeping worms in, for fishing..

[Viddy well]

1 hour ago, Gladys said:

 

 

 

"Very simply, I was aware of the changes, thought there was plenty of publicity and those shouting that there was none were wrong."

Yes, I think you characterized in one of your posts that, "there was something in the wind," which sums up the communications effort. You either had to be listening to Manx Radio on one of the two or three days it was discussed, or you had to be at the £20,000 Douglas fun day, where it was publicized, or you had to be an existing recycler to receive your special text, or you had to slavishly trawl the news, newspapers and social media every day ("as is your choice in a democratic society") to have a chance of finding one of the following:

* We are thinking of moving to fortnightly bin collections - others have thought of it before us
* We will be moving to fortnightly bin collections in April
* We will be moving to fortnightly bin collections in September
* It is about recycling
* It is about the money #£25,000

Even then, despite this 'comprehensive' communications drive, hundreds of residents were surprised to find bins still full of trash after their expected collection day. How could so many people be so wrong simultaneously?

" I also thought that the personal attacks on here of Amadeus were completely uncalled for and abusive."

Of course they are. It's perverse to punish him for seeking to demonstrate transparency of decision making. But neither he nor you nor John Wright, all of whom completed the consultation has been able to produce evidence that it took place. Surely the simplest way to dispel suspicion that it was tokenistic is to dig it out, demonstrate it was publicized as well as any other consultation (and we have a precedent in the 2016 "Consultation on dogs running amok on Douglas Head")?

"I have also said many times that I have experienced exactly these changes over 20 years ago; you just got on with it and they worked.   It was a London Borough,  they had fixed their policy and their job was to implement it. There was little scope for 'but, but' arguments."

And isn't this confession the heart of the matter as far as you're concerned? You were made to do it and your protests didn't matter then, so why should the population of Douglas have it any better than you? That's like something my mother would say.

Edited December 1, 2022 by Viddy well
typo (dative)

[Gladys]

1 minute ago, Viddy well said:

"Very simply, I was aware of the changes, thought there was plenty of publicity and those shouting that there was none were wrong."

1. Yes, I think you characterized in one of your posts that, "there was something in the wind," which sums up the communications effort. You either had to be listening to Manx Radio on one of the two or three days it was discussed, or you had to be at the £20,000 Douglas fun day, where it was publicized, or you had to be an existing recycler to receive your special text, or you had to slavishly trawl the news, newspapers and social media every day ("as is your choice in a democratic society") to have a chance of finding one of the following:

* We are thinking of moving to fortnightly bin collections - others have thought of it before us
* We will be moving to fortnightly bin collections in April
* We will be moving to fortnightly bin collections in September
* It is about recycling
* It is about the money #£25,000

Even then, despite this 'comprehensive' communications drive, hundreds of residents were surprised to find bins still full of trash after their expected collection day. How could so many people be so wrong simultaneously?

" I also thought that the personal attacks on here of Amadeus were completely uncalled for and abusive."

2. Of course they are. It's perverse to punish him for seeking to demonstrate transparency of decision making. But neither he nor you nor John Wright, all of whom who completed the consultation has been able to produce evidence that it took place. Surely the simplest way to dispel suspicion that it was tokenistic is to dig it out, demonstrate it was publicized as well as any other consultation (and we have a precedent in the 2016 "Consultation on dogs running amok on Douglas Head")?

"I have also said many times that I have experienced exactly these changes over 20 years ago; you just got on with it and they worked.   It was a London Borough,  they had fixed their policy and their job was to implement it. There was little scope for 'but, but' arguments."

3. And isn't this confession the heart of the matter as far as you're concerned? You were made to do it and your protests didn't matter then, so why should the population of Douglas have it any better than you? That's like something my mother would say.

1. That is a quote out of context, as you will have seen (having trawled all my posts) I have always said I was aware and for a long time, then posted the leaflet I received. 

2.  It was a Survey Monkey that I was invited to complete via text in October 21, which I said on here.  Not sure how I can demonstrate that to you. 

3. I didn't protest then, and I haven’t protested now. I don't disagree with the basic concept, understand that there will be issues, but that does not mean that the whole idea should be abandoned.  My mother would have said 'like it or lump it'.

[Viddy well]

4 minutes ago, Gladys said:

1. That is a quote out of context, as you will have seen (having trawled all my posts) I have always said I was aware and for a long time, then posted the leaflet I received. 

2.  It was a Survey Monkey that I was invited to complete via text in October 21, which I said on here.  Not sure how I can demonstrate that to you. 

3. I didn't protest then, and I haven’t protested now. I don't disagree with the basic concept, understand that there will be issues, but that does not mean that the whole idea should be abandoned.  My mother would have said 'like it or lump it'.

Sorry - I've obviously hit a raw nerve. That wasn't my intention. It looks like we'll all have to like it or lump it until April 2024

[Gladys]

Just now, Viddy well said:

Sorry - I've obviously hit a raw nerve. That wasn't my intention. It looks like we'll all have to like it or lump it until April 2024

You haven't hit a nerve at all.  Don't worry about that. 

I just don't understand why people are not trying to work with it and address the flaws, instead of trying to reverse it. 

I would be happy to debate complaints from someone who said they had tried to work within the new arrangements but could not make it work for them for specific reasons (other than changing their habits)  rather than someone who has not even tried. 

[Numbnuts]

The biggest issue with the new arrangement is not making it work but the lazy tossers not trying and just dumping their stuff in other peoples bin. I have no problem working to a fortnightly empty but winds me up when accessing my bin to see several bin bags in before me. Am on holiday currently so not bothered but when I return the lock I've purchased will be fitted and they can all do one. But wouldnt mind betting they will just dump it on the ground if they cant bin it .

Edited December 2, 2022 by Numbnuts