More Jollies

[Shake me up Judy]

No disrespect to Stu and the MHK's who were on the trip, but if it really mattered or carried any weight do you really think they'd have sent you ? This wasn't real business.

Alf's trip to South Africa was though, to sell the IOM and Manx homes to rich South Africans trying to get out, and to get us up to 100,000 pop. Wonder who was on this trip ? It would be interesting to know. 

[John Wright]

51 minutes ago, A fool and his money..... said:

But we own a ferry company with a newly acquired freight ship and a soon to be expanded fleet of ferries. The transport links are almost entirely within our control.

I'm not suggesting we cut ties with the UK entirely, merely saying there would be undoubted advantages in aligning ourselves with Ireland. It's part of a common travel are which includes both ourselves and the UK, you can travel to Ireland without passport control presently, why would travelling to the UK be any different if we aligned with Ireland?

For me the two main problems with our attachment to the UK are, the millions we pay them for "defence" despite the fact they've never defended us against anything nor are they likely to - instead they spend the money on frequent involvement in foreign conflicts with which I don't agree and have no democratic input.

And Brexit- five years ago I could travel or work within the EU for as long as I liked - now it's 3 months max, then I have to leave for three months before I can return. I had no democratic say in this decision and I don't believe such curtailment of personal freedoms is befitting of a 21st century democracy, it's not progressive or something to aspire two.

Both these problems would be solved by aligning with the ROI rather than the UK. It makes sense in many other ways too. I know it wouldn't be without its challenges and would take a bit of effort but I don't see that as a reason to dismiss it out of hand. Sadly I don't believe it will ever happen - our politicians lack the imagination, drive and wit to make it happen, also I think too many British egos within our political and civil service would be bruised. The idea that a world exists beyond the UK is an alien notion to many.

I’m not disagreeing with you.

im looking at the pragmatics.

it’s not just owning ferries, it’s about our boats being able to dock and unload passengers and freight in Ireland. It’s not random that the Ben only goes to Belfast, not Dublin. Sure Arrow can load in Warrenpoint but there are no passenger facilities.

In Dublin the passenger ferry terminals/link spans are operated by Stena, P&O and Irish Ferries. I think There would be capacity issues as well as the question of whether they can be used without modification. The number of ferries now using Dublin ( or even Rosslare or Cork ) has doubled since Brexit as freight and passengers seek to connect with EU and avoid the UK land bridge routes.

im using via Ireland for at least 50% of my trips to Bilbao. The size of ferries is huge now as everyone moves onto e-flexer class. ( one of the reasons SPCo was no longer able to use Birkenhead was the e-flexer adaptations to boarding and disembarkation.

Im not sure how long the CTA will last. Ireland is becoming more and more integrated in the EU, the Schengen e-borders and e-visa regime starting in 2023 will inevitably put pressure on Ireland, domestically and politically, to join Schengen.  The number of Irish born immigrants in the UK is at its lowest level in more than a century. Theyre only the 5th largest group now..

Are you suggesting a customs and vat arrangement with Ireland? Have you experienced prices in Ireland recently.

As for “defence”, the payment is for shared services. That includes diplomatic, consular, passports, negotiating for our special status in relation to international treaties and organisation,  as well as “defence”. The Irish, or anyone else, won’t do it for free. The amount that goes to “defence” is minuscule compared to the UK defence budget.

Yes, you’ve raised an issue with freedom of movement post Brexit. I also find it irksome. If we align with Ireland, and rejoin the EU as an associate statelet, how will that affect the current freedom of Brits to come here to retire and work? Or vice versa? Or for education of Manx students? 

What about our health care agreements? 60+% of Irish population have to pay for GP visits, medicine, hospital stays, A&E.

Im just looking for answers to how we deal with these problems. 

 

[BriT]

18 minutes ago, Shake me up Judy said:

Alf's trip to South Africa was though, to sell the IOM and Manx homes to rich South Africans trying to get out, and to get us up to 100,000 pop. Wonder who was on this trip ? It would be interesting to know. 

I heard in general terms that a few people on the trip thought Alf struggled and wasn’t up to the job. 

[Shake me up Judy]

41 minutes ago, BriT said:

I heard in general terms that a few people on the trip thought Alf struggled and wasn’t up to the job. 

I wonder what they meant by that ? Up to what job ? 

[Gladys]

1 minute ago, Shake me up Judy said:

I wonder what they meant by that ? Up to what job ? 

Good question and the very one in my mind. Let's face it, if Alf isn't up to this kind of thing, which other MHK is? 

[2112]

I don’t think CM Cannan is much use, very overrated and hyped up. Talks a good game, but delivers nothing. However, could you imagine if the delegation to South Africa was headed by (now ex CM) Howard Quayle? It really doesn’t bear thinking of. I don’t think Allinson would have achieved much in South Africa either, if he headed the Manx delegation. 

Edited November 6, 2022 by 2112

[Numbnuts]

15 minutes ago, 2112 said:

I don’t think CM Cannan is much use, very overrated and hyped up. Talks a good game, but delivers nothing. However, could you imagine if the delegation to South Africa was headed by (now ex CM) Howard Quayle? It really doesn’t bear thinking of. I don’t think Allinson would have achieved much in South Africa either, if he headed the Manx delegation. 

Cant believe your naivety. We have the obvious candidate in the pillar of society that is ...David John Ashford MBE MHK..font of all knowledge.

Edited November 6, 2022 by Numbnuts

[John Wright]

Perhaps Listenburg, the most recent EU member state, will take on the IoM

[BriT]

2 hours ago, Shake me up Judy said:

I wonder what they meant by that ? Up to what job ? 

Didn’t seem to have much of a scooby about what was going on to do with the finance sector was suggested to me. Which when you're representing the finance sector might be an issue. 

[Roger Mexico]

7 minutes ago, BriT said:

[Cannan] Didn’t seem to have much of a scooby about what was going on to do with the finance sector was suggested to me. Which when you're representing the finance sector might be an issue. 

To be fair to Cannan, it's always difficult to know what to make of such generalised complaints.  Sometimes it's just someone who thinks that a Minister should know every detail of the obscure corner of the business they operate in and sometimes (and worse) it's someone who's complaining that the Minister doesn't agree with everything they say and do whatever they want.

Cannan's an improvement on Quayle who often would do exactly that, causing all sorts of problems.  Though I have to say that Cannan often does give the impression that he's unaware of what's happening, sometimes it could be that he's being guarded and not wanting to over-promise or give away information.  But equally he may just be that's he's clueless and badly briefed. If there have been problems, a lot of it must be laid at the door of Cabinet office not preparing things properly.

[A fool and his money.....]

4 hours ago, John Wright said:

I’m not disagreeing with you.

im looking at the pragmatics.

it’s not just owning ferries, it’s about our boats being able to dock and unload passengers and freight in Ireland. It’s not random that the Ben only goes to Belfast, not Dublin. Sure Arrow can load in Warrenpoint but there are no passenger facilities.

In Dublin the passenger ferry terminals/link spans are operated by Stena, P&O and Irish Ferries. I think There would be capacity issues as well as the question of whether they can be used without modification. The number of ferries now using Dublin ( or even Rosslare or Cork ) has doubled since Brexit as freight and passengers seek to connect with EU and avoid the UK land bridge routes.

im using via Ireland for at least 50% of my trips to Bilbao. The size of ferries is huge now as everyone moves onto e-flexer class. ( one of the reasons SPCo was no longer able to use Birkenhead was the e-flexer adaptations to boarding and disembarkation.

Im not sure how long the CTA will last. Ireland is becoming more and more integrated in the EU, the Schengen e-borders and e-visa regime starting in 2023 will inevitably put pressure on Ireland, domestically and politically, to join Schengen.  The number of Irish born immigrants in the UK is at its lowest level in more than a century. Theyre only the 5th largest group now..

Are you suggesting a customs and vat arrangement with Ireland? Have you experienced prices in Ireland recently.

As for “defence”, the payment is for shared services. That includes diplomatic, consular, passports, negotiating for our special status in relation to international treaties and organisation,  as well as “defence”. The Irish, or anyone else, won’t do it for free. The amount that goes to “defence” is minuscule compared to the UK defence budget.

Yes, you’ve raised an issue with freedom of movement post Brexit. I also find it irksome. If we align with Ireland, and rejoin the EU as an associate statelet, how will that affect the current freedom of Brits to come here to retire and work? Or vice versa? Or for education of Manx students? 

What about our health care agreements? 60+% of Irish population have to pay for GP visits, medicine, hospital stays, A&E.

Im just looking for answers to how we deal with these problems. 

 

I appreciate you weren't disagreeing and accept there are problems, but not insurmountable ones, and there are similar problems with the current arrangement.

The ferry docking capacity may or may not be a problem, although we have just thrown £70 million into a large hole in the concrete in Liverpool so I'm not sure the problem is limited to the Irish routes. EU travel areas etc. are open to speculation, from a travel point of view we are always better in the EU by association than out of it IMHO. The Irish passport is also considerably stronger than a British one for travel further afield.  

I'm well aware our defence contribution covers diplomatic, consular and international services, all of which Ireland are well represented with the world over. I never suggested that they would do it for free, merely that they could provide the service for us resulting in less blood on our hands. I can't see how that would be a bad thing. Freedoms of travel with the UK are likely to be largely unaffected, as they are with Ireland at present. Even if they were, I think maintaining freedoms with one country in favour of freedoms with most of a continent doesn't make a lot of sense.

As for health, well our health service is fully funded by ourselves, we ( the government) already pay for any treatment in the UK. The only thing we'd lose is the RHA, remember that storm in a teacup? We don't have a RHA with any other country in the world, why do we need one with the UK? Jersey manage perfectly well without. 

[Numbnuts]

27 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said:

To be fair to Cannan, it's always difficult to know what to make of such generalised complaints.  Sometimes it's just someone who thinks that a Minister should know every detail of the obscure corner of the business they operate in and sometimes (and worse) it's someone who's complaining that the Minister doesn't agree with everything they say and do whatever they want.

Cannan's an improvement on Quayle who often would do exactly that, causing all sorts of problems.  Though I have to say that Cannan often does give the impression that he's unaware of what's happening, sometimes it could be that he's being guarded and not wanting to over-promise or give away information.  But equally he may just be that's he's clueless and badly briefed. If there have been problems, a lot of it must be laid at the door of Cabinet office not preparing things properly.

To be fair I think Cannan has far more issues on his mind recently than the considerable task of being the CM . But he does come across as clueless tbh .Seems to talk a good game but nothing I've seen convinces me he's remotely capable . And all the mismanagement when he was Treasury minister would back up my thoughts.  

Edited November 6, 2022 by Numbnuts

[Apple]

13 hours ago, Freggyragh said:

Our representatives should be pointing out that whilst perhaps being aligned with the UK has been mostly mutually beneficial in the past, and the links we have are strong, there are other countries we could align with that have far better trade advantages and all round better governance. To back that up, our MHKs should be working a little harder at exploring what other countries might offer. 

We would have to ask the UKs permission first seeing as they own the island.

[Omobono]

On 11/6/2022 at 1:24 PM, John Wright said:

I’m not disagreeing with you.

im looking at the pragmatics.

it’s not just owning ferries, it’s about our boats being able to dock and unload passengers and freight in Ireland. It’s not random that the Ben only goes to Belfast, not Dublin. Sure Arrow can load in Warrenpoint but there are no passenger facilities.

In Dublin the passenger ferry terminals/link spans are operated by Stena, P&O and Irish Ferries. I think There would be capacity issues as well as the question of whether they can be used without modification. The number of ferries now using Dublin ( or even Rosslare or Cork ) has doubled since Brexit as freight and passengers seek to connect with EU and avoid the UK land bridge routes.

im using via Ireland for at least 50% of my trips to Bilbao. The size of ferries is huge now as everyone moves onto e-flexer class. ( one of the reasons SPCo was no longer able to use Birkenhead was the e-flexer adaptations to boarding and disembarkation.

Im not sure how long the CTA will last. Ireland is becoming more and more integrated in the EU, the Schengen e-borders and e-visa regime starting in 2023 will inevitably put pressure on Ireland, domestically and politically, to join Schengen.  The number of Irish born immigrants in the UK is at its lowest level in more than a century. Theyre only the 5th largest group now..

Are you suggesting a customs and vat arrangement with Ireland? Have you experienced prices in Ireland recently.

As for “defence”, the payment is for shared services. That includes diplomatic, consular, passports, negotiating for our special status in relation to international treaties and organisation,  as well as “defence”. The Irish, or anyone else, won’t do it for free. The amount that goes to “defence” is minuscule compared to the UK defence budget.

Yes, you’ve raised an issue with freedom of movement post Brexit. I also find it irksome. If we align with Ireland, and rejoin the EU as an associate statelet, how will that affect the current freedom of Brits to come here to retire and work? Or vice versa? Or for education of Manx students? 

What about our health care agreements? 60+% of Irish population have to pay for GP visits, medicine, hospital stays, A&E.

Im just looking for answers to how we deal with these problems. 

 

Numbers of people flying long haul out of Dublin airport is also rising , you can save £2000 on a business class return to South Africa with Turkish airlines , when compared with British Airways  who have  really lost the plot,  both with fares and customer service , extra  flights from the Island to Dublin  will enable more  long haul travellers to benefit from the Dublin gateway link 

[John Wright]

5 minutes ago, Omobono said:

Numbers of people flying long haul out of Dublin airport is also rising , you can save £2000 on a business class return to South Africa with Turkish airlines , when compared with British Airways  who have  really lost the plot,  both with fares and customer service , extra  flights from the Island to Dublin  will enable more  long haul travellers to benefit from the Dublin gateway link 

I’ve only flown Turkish twice ( including an Istanbul stop over ). Never, ever, again.

But I always explore a variety of routes if I’m flying. And in summer going to Spain, IoM - DUB - REU is convenient, if the  IoM DUB ties in.