The Next Labour Govt In London

[WTF]

Just now, The Phantom said:

That's almost a nature vs nurture argument.  If they do have a different social mentality, they're not born that way, they are brought up that way, as you note.  It therefore gives even more positives to bringing it in the the UK, giving the opportunity to straighten up a feckless youth.  Or maybe we are both being too critical of today's youngens?

too many youths and too few military for it to work ,  you used to have a handful of miscreants who spent their time locked up , too many bad uns nowadays.

[The Phantom]

2 minutes ago, WTF said:

too many youths and too few military for it to work ,  you used to have a handful of miscreants who spent their time locked up , too many bad uns nowadays.

You'll find a lot of those miscreants make the best soldiers! 

[Declan]

Switzerland is one of the most authoritarian countries in Western Europe whilst Britain has a strong libertarian streak. 

[WTF]

1 minute ago, The Phantom said:

You'll find a lot of those miscreants make the best soldiers! 

the murder and rape platoon.

[HeliX]

24 minutes ago, WTF said:

the murder and rape platoon.

That's every army.

[quilp]

2 hours ago, The Phantom said:

... do you hear of many active shooter incidents in Switzerland? There are virtually none...

Last mass shooting in Switzerland was back in September 2001. 14 dead, many wounded.

[Roger Mexico]

3 hours ago, Hairy Poppins said:

One other thought, with our VAT arrangements largely tied into the UK. Would Labour's plan to add VAT to private schools also apply here? Could we see a 20% tax take from King Bills?

I realise we could apply to differ our VAT arrangements, but would Comin want to?

Well two of them went to King Bill's (Cannan and Johnston) and at least one other (Poole-Wilson) sends her kids there, so what do you think?  That said it would require UK permission and if Labour keeps their promise (which would be a first from Starmer) they would probably be unwilling to allow it as it might take pupils and hence VAT from the UK.

[Declan]

I was thinking what would National Service mean for the Isle of Man?

Teenagers forced into the Orange Army, sitting on a hedge in the rain, scrolling through their phones, waiting for geriatric bikers to zoom past? Given a dayglo tabbard and book of tickets and released around Douglas to find parking miscreants and people wrongly claiming benefits? Bit of painting here and there to keep the angry boomers like Charles Guard happy?

But they'll need managing, so it'll be promotions all round and Friday afternoon in the Woody the day Tynwald passes that legislation.  

[Roger Mexico]

4 hours ago, The Phantom said:

Switzerland has one of the better implemented national service regimes.  Although they very much base it on along the lines of National 'duty'.  The majority of military aged males, from cleaners to lawyers, will have an Assault Rifle sat at home and extensive training on how to use it.  The service is approx 8 months depending on exactly what you want to do and then you're in reserves for 10 years with a few weekends training every year. 

They actually had a referendum to change it about 10 years ago.  75% voted to keep it. 

But the thing about Switzerland's National Service (apart from all the things already explained by you and others) is that every generation has had to go through it and this is what gives it its wide appeal and encourages social solidarity.  In contrast the last time men were called up for it in the UK was in 1960.  So you have to be born in 1942 or earlier to have been affected.  Not one Baby Boomer (born 1945 onwards) was ever called up.  Watching endless war films doesn't count.  Even if they were in black-and-white.

So this is yet another top-of-the head policy designed to appeal only to spiteful pensioners and the newspapers they are the last people to buy.  So just like every other policy the Tories have promoted over the last decades and Labour under Starmer. Hivibes may be right about it being more about stopping voters moving to Farage's latest gang than anything else. 

But I think even the majority of Boomers are beginning to see through all the nonsense and want politicians addressing the things that affect their lives rather than endless culture war crap that media types and donors seem to want.  Hence the complete lack of enthusiasm for the election among practically everyone.

I think you're ex-Forces and so will be aware how unpopular the idea of National Service is among those in the regular services.  It's one of the main reasons it was stopped in 1960.  Expect to hear the word "babysitting" used a lot in the next few weeks.  As for civilian alternatives, we don't even have enough people to organise small numbers of prisoners in work parties.  How are they going to supervise every 18-year old?

To get back to the subject of Switzerland, the widespread keeping of firearms doesn't lead to an increased homicide rate, but it does lead to a high rate of suicide by those means.  Switzerland is #9 in the world.  The USA heads the table by the way.  Despite all the horrific mass shootings and the like, the people most at danger from gun ownership are the owners.

[Mikimoto]

1 hour ago, Declan said:

I was thinking what would National Service mean for the Isle of Man?

Teenagers forced into the Orange Army

I don't think anyone from here is going to be supporting Trump...

[The Phantom]

4 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said:

But the thing about Switzerland's National Service (apart from all the things already explained by you and others) is that every generation has had to go through it and this is what gives it its wide appeal and encourages social solidarity.  In contrast the last time men were called up for it in the UK was in 1960.  So you have to be born in 1942 or earlier to have been affected.  Not one Baby Boomer (born 1945 onwards) was ever called up.  Watching endless war films doesn't count.  Even if they were in black-and-white.

So this is yet another top-of-the head policy designed to appeal only to spiteful pensioners and the newspapers they are the last people to buy.  So just like every other policy the Tories have promoted over the last decades and Labour under Starmer. Hivibes may be right about it being more about stopping voters moving to Farage's latest gang than anything else. 

But I think even the majority of Boomers are beginning to see through all the nonsense and want politicians addressing the things that affect their lives rather than endless culture war crap that media types and donors seem to want.  Hence the complete lack of enthusiasm for the election among practically everyone.

I think you're ex-Forces and so will be aware how unpopular the idea of National Service is among those in the regular services.  It's one of the main reasons it was stopped in 1960.  Expect to hear the word "babysitting" used a lot in the next few weeks.  As for civilian alternatives, we don't even have enough people to organise small numbers of prisoners in work parties.  How are they going to supervise every 18-year old?

To get back to the subject of Switzerland, the widespread keeping of firearms doesn't lead to an increased homicide rate, but it does lead to a high rate of suicide by those means.  Switzerland is #9 in the world.  The USA heads the table by the way.  Despite all the horrific mass shootings and the like, the people most at danger from gun ownership are the owners.

The key is it's 'National Service', it's to serve your nation in possibly numerous ways.  People always just assume upon hearing those words that it's conscription into the Army.  SWitzerland is more of a Militia than national service and I actually quite like the idea of a ''Citizen Army' but personally I prefer the old French route - you could become a paramedic, firefighter, life guard, ranger, work in hospitals etc or join the Military. 

Agreed, I'd be in mixed minds if I was still in the Army.  You wouldn't really want veterans sharing a foxhole with some snotty nosed conscript.  But to be honest if it got to that point, I think we'd all be pretty screwed anyway.  Frankly it made me, even though I was in my early 20s, I was still a kid when I joined.  Principally it taught me discipline, respect and self reliance, something that are seemingly lacking nowadays, but then again probably every middle aged person thinks the same about the youth. 

It's not going to happen anyway, it's just more propaganda to redirect attention from the general mess of things.  The UK military is now the smallest it has been since Napoleonic times and the Tories have been at the helm for this decline and now they come up with this!  Lots of talk of being on a war footing, but I haven't seen much action apart from the price of BAE shares! 

 

[Albert Tatlock]

6 minutes ago, The Phantom said:

Principally it taught me discipline, respect and self reliance, something that are seemingly lacking nowadays, but then again probably every middle aged person thinks the same about the youth. 

It's been going on a while 😀

“Young people are high-minded because they have not yet been humbled by life, nor have they experienced the force of circumstances.
…
They think they know everything, and are always quite sure about it.”

Aristotle (400 BC)

[Banker]

1 hour ago, Roger Mexico said:

Well two of them went to King Bill's (Cannan and Johnston) and at least one other (Poole-Wilson) sends her kids there, so what do you think?  That said it would require UK permission and if Labour keeps their promise (which would be a first from Starmer) they would probably be unwilling to allow it as it might take pupils and hence VAT from the UK.

If they did add VAT to school fees then many parents might decide it’s unaffordable and withdraw children. This would make massive pressure on state schools here & Uk so not sure it will happen 

[Albert Tatlock]

1 hour ago, Declan said:

I was thinking what would National Service mean for the Isle of Man?

As long as it never involves bloody Juan Watterson and his army cadet uniform. 

[Albert Tatlock]

2 minutes ago, Banker said:

If they did add VAT to school fees then many parents might decide it’s unaffordable and withdraw children. This would make massive pressure on state schools here & Uk so not sure it will happen 

Each private school fee saves the taxpayer £7k they reckon, from otherwise having to be spent on state schools.

So Labour's plan seems to be a bit of a false economy IMO.

Private school guarantees nothing...if you're a plank you will still be a plank whatever school you leave.

I've known a few families over the years that effectively wasted tens of £thousands on King Bill's.