Assisted Dying Leaflet published by ?

[Apple]

16 minutes ago, Gladys said:

There is a slightly different view and that is that medicine rather than alleviating suffering, sometimes prolongs it.  There are some diseases which have only one outcome,  yet it seems that what medicine does is extend the life of the sufferer and so their suffering.  It is a complicated ethical issue, I really understand that.  But rather than have prolonging life as the goal, shouldn't the goal be to lessen suffering?

Nail on head @Gladys.  It is complex and every situation has to be carefully considered in the best interest of reducing a persons suffering.

As for the leaflet it is incorrect, misleading and does not make the distinction between assisted dying and assisted suicide clearly enough. Suicide, assisted to not, doesn't come into it at all. 

Palliative care should be available to all but sadly it isn't. 

Leaflet is now in bin.

 

[Cinderella]

1 hour ago, Mysteron said:

I wonder how many people change their views towards assisted dying, once they've witnessed a loved one enduring an end similar to your FIL's. 

I certainly changed my views after a close relative became terminally ill.  They knew 12 months before that their condition was terminal, and in the last couple of months they pleaded to be allowed to die as things became uncomfortable and painful.  They also perceived they were a liability, and the stress on the family was palpable at times.  They were still in full control of their faculties until several days before passing, and I think if they could say so now, they'd offer the authors of this leaflet some forthright opinions.

Sorry to hear what your relative went through. My FIL had always been very clear on his views if he was to get an incurable illness. He had researched his options and prepared. He then got incurable bone cancer in his spine. He got two medical opinions to be sure. Both were grim on what was ahead. He acted accordingly but the fact he had to die alone makes me angry. He had strength of character to complete it, most wouldn’t and would just suffer. I have immense respect for him. He was 95 and completely in charge of his faculties. 

[Gladys]

3 minutes ago, Apple said:

Nail on head @Gladys.  It is complex and every situation has to be carefully considered in the best interest of reducing a persons suffering.

As for the leaflet it is incorrect, misleading and does not make the distinction between assisted dying and assisted suicide clearly enough. Suicide, assisted to not, doesn't come into it at all. 

Palliative care should be available to all but sadly it isn't. 

Leaflet is now in bin.

 

Terrible issue to ponder, but if we really believe in humane arrangements for people at that awful time in their life, the debate has to be had.  

[Mr Helmut Fromage]

What people need to remember is that Assisted Dying as per Dignitas is usually via private clinic with incredible amounts of screening checks and referrals from Healthcare Professionals- I haven’t had need to check again recently but 10 years ago it was £24,000 for the final appointment - it’s not a case of I’m done turn off the plug.

Its a whole new industry after the legislation is passed - something I feel not many people acknowledge 

[finlo]

2 minutes ago, Mr Helmut Fromage said:

What people need to remember is that Assisted Dying as per Dignitas is usually via private clinic with incredible amounts of screening checks and referrals from Healthcare Professionals- I haven’t had need to check again recently but 10 years ago it was £24,000 for the final appointment - it’s not a case of I’m done turn off the plug.

Its a whole new industry after the legislation is passed - something I feel not many people acknowledge 

I suppose it could be one answer to the "black hole"

[wrighty]

I’ve probably posted this before, but I’ll do it again.  If of sound mind and failing body I want to be able to decide when to go.  If of failing mind I want to be able to set out advance criteria which would enable my passing, perhaps entrusting the final decision to my kids. 
 

Religious views need to have no more (or less) weight than any others in the debate. If someone believes that assisted dying is against their god’s will then don’t do it. But to define laws based on the interpretation of bronze age texts is madness. Literally. 
 

I was quite disappointed in the local rag’s headline “Doctors oppose assisted dying”. More correct would be that they’d found 3 docs who’d written them a letter who were against it.  The headline reads like it’s all of us. This particular doc is absolutely for patient autonomy, with appropriate safeguards. 
 

And finally, to pick up on Gladys’ point about life preservation vs life quality, I’m of a view that once you get to a certain time in life, any prescribed medication should be to make you feel better, not reduce the risk of some disease you don’t have by a minuscule amount while making you feel terrible (this is my personal gripe with big pharma and government guidelines that mean most folk in their 60s are on a bucket load of meds, making them feel generally lousy)

[Albert Tatlock]

BMA position on assisted dying...

https://www.bma.org.uk/advice-and-support/ethics/end-of-life/physician-assisted-dying

[Roger Mexico]

1 hour ago, Mr Helmut Fromage said:

I honestly think most people would support Assisted Dying on humane grounds

You'd be right, at least as far as the UK goes (I don't know of any Manx polling).  YouGov for instance has regular tracker questions and the most recent result for Do you think the law should or should not be changed to allow someone to assist in the suicide of...someone suffering from a terminal illness?  had 69% in favour and only 11% against (the rest were unsure).  These are pretty typical figures since they started asking the question.

A different question Should the law be changed to allow someone to assist in the suicide of someone suffering from an incurable but NOT terminal illness? doesn't get as much support - partly because the "Not sures" (who I suspect were more "It depends") were higher.  In November 45% were in favour, 25% against and 30% not sure - again pretty constant over time.

[The Voice of Reason]

I’ve not received a copy of said leaflet.

But if it deals in facts, and promotes a particular point of view I don’t quite see the problem.

I am instinctively anti abortion but my life has never been impacted by any family member or acquaintance ( at least to my knowledge) having had one. But I’m prepared to listen to the other side of the argument.

I don’t buy the argument that you shouldn’t show aborted fetuses on  placards if that is the reality of abortion Or slaughtered animals if you are trying to promote vegetarianism. Or images of dead soldiers bodies in an anti war protest.

Genuine  ( non doctored ) images are perfectly legitimate in the advancement of an argument showing the consequences of that which you are campaigning against, however unsavory or distressing. A picture paints a thousand words as someone once said.

Going back to the original topic, the last four years of my mothers life spent in a care home were heartbreaking for her ( suffering from dementia as she did) And, yes after much soul searching I think a dignified exit for her would have been best.  Other people may not have had that experience so their view on assisted dying, quite naturally,may differ.

Edited January 9, 2023 by The Voice of Reason

[WTF]

50 minutes ago, wrighty said:

 

 If someone believes that assisted dying is against their god’s will then don’t do it. 
 

 

fair enough for them, but those wankers should have ZERO say in what i should be allowed  to do if my circumstances dictate i want to fuck off earlier than they think i should..

[AcousticallyChallenged]

10 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

I’ve not received a copy of said leaflet.

But if it deals in facts, and promotes a particular point of view I don’t quite see the problem.

I am instinctively anti abortion but my life has never been impacted by any family member or acquaintance ( at least to my knowledge) having had one. But I’m prepared to listen to the other side of the argument.

I don’t buy the argument that you shouldn’t show aborted fetuses on  placards if that is the reality of abortion Or slaughtered animals if you are trying to promote vegetarianism. Or images of dead soldiers bodies in an anti war protest.

Genuine  ( non doctored ) images are perfectly legitimate in the advancement of an argument showing the consequences of that which you are campaigning against, however unsavory or distressing. A picture paints a thousand words as someone once said.

Going back to the original topic, the last four years of my mothers life spent in a care home were heartbreaking for her ( suffering from dementia as she did) And, yes after much soul searching I think a dignified exit for her would have been best.  Other people may not have had that experience so their view on assisted dying, quite naturally,may differ.

It gets into an interesting debate of where does life start, where does the soul start etc.

But, is it fair to bring a child into the world that can’t be taken the best care of? Women should have the freedom of choice and bodily autonomy.

One could readily argue the same in terms of assisted dying. Someone of sound mind, should be able to take that decision into their own hands.

The leaflet is very emotive, discusses normalising suicide, in their words. There isn’t much in terms of actual statistics in it. At best, they proffer a statistic on where assisted dying is used and at what rates.

But, is 1 in 25 deaths really that high, if it is allowing those dying to do so with dignity?

[Yibble]

1 hour ago, wrighty said:

I was quite disappointed in the local rag’s headline “Doctors oppose assisted dying”. More correct would be that they’d found 3 docs who’d written them a letter who were against it.  The headline reads like it’s all of us.

I didn't read the headline that way. The first line of the article also made things very clear: "Three doctors have spoken out against proposals to legalise assisted dying."

My views on the matter are, I think, closer to yours than theirs. However I thought it was a well-positioned article and I thought they expressed ther own views professionally and with sensitivity to those who may think otherwise.

https://www.iomtoday.co.im/news/doctors-oppose-assisted-dying-legislation-586505

 

[AcousticallyChallenged]

4 minutes ago, Yibble said:

I didn't read the headline that way. The first line of the article also made things very clear: "Three doctors have spoken out against proposals to legalise assisted dying."

My views on the matter are, I think, closer to yours than theirs. However I thought it was a well-positioned article and I thought they expressed ther own views professionally and with sensitivity to those who may think otherwise.

https://www.iomtoday.co.im/news/doctors-oppose-assisted-dying-legislation-586505

 

I can understand their reticence. After all, Doctors swear to do no harm. 

However, many others see the pain and suffering a dying person endures. 6 months to live of suffering, humiliation and loss of your physical or mental faculties is a long time to endure. You may not be in a state to remember the pain, but you will certainly feel it.

Some people are fortunate enough to fall asleep peacefully and never wake, others are fighting a disease to their dying breath.

I have seen fantastic, strong men and women reduced to panicked, incontinent shells of their former selves. Something they still felt mortified about, but were powerless to change. Quality of life was a distant memory, survival was all it was for them.

I pray, that if I get to that stage in my life, I can peacefully go when I’m ready. In a way that’s not going to result in undue trauma for those around me, or someone who would have to find me. 

[The Voice of Reason]

3 minutes ago, AcousticallyChallenged said:

 

But, is it fair to bring a child into the world that can’t be taken the best care of? Women should have the freedom of choice and bodily autonomy.

 

Well what does “ be taken the best care of “ actually mean?. I would suggest it means different things to different people by dint of class, geography, familial situations etc etc

Women ( and men) have the freedom of choice to use contraception. What does body autonomy mean? Autonomy to self harm etc? Does the man not have a say in this? If I was the co creator of a life I think I should have some sort of say in that. Having sexual intercourse and thinking its OK, If I do happen to fall pregnant I can have an abortion 

Im not going off on a rant and as I say my life has not been touched by having been to deal with the abortion issue and I’m grateful for that

[manxman1980]

2 hours ago, TheTeapot said:

When did he ask?

It wasn't really something that was discussed then.

2 hours ago, Gladys said:

If he was of sound mind, etc. when he wanted the intervention, if at all.   None of this is imposing assisted dying on anyone who is able to decide and doesn't want it. 

I appreciate that.  I just find it difficult to define at what point I would want such an intervention to happen I guess.

In my father's case the decline was very rapid and he was gone with a couple of days.  Once that decline happened he was not in a fit state to give consent.