Eden Centre-The Isle of Man-the next 30 years?

[Derek Flint]

20 minutes ago, Mr Helmut Fromage said:

As you’ve taken your ball home Derek and spat your dummy at the above- now you’re on the green agenda/ticket how ridiculous does your super car rich person parade now appear in hindsight?

Eh?

I'm over in May with another fifty, pumping money into the economy and CO2 into the biosphere and bigging up why I still refer to the Island as 'home'. Another fifty of my cronies are over the week after, doing much the same on the money and emissions front.

I Work hard to excuse away the poor bits - the numerous sites that leave the place looking like the Luftwaffe have been over to Ramsey for the weekend, the half finished and increasingly empty shopping centre in the capital city. And why, approaching 20 years since the last Summerland was demolished, the homage to those lost is as it is.

Why?

Because for some unfathomable reason I still love the place and care that its future is bright and prosperous.

My opinion on the green agenda? An unnecessary and poorly thought out package of virtue signalling which will make no meaningful or measurable contribution to global emissions, cost the Island dearly and further blunt any competitive edge that once existed.

Helmet Fromage?

More like le noeud.

See you in May.

 

 

[Max Power]

Our government has no strategic sense, no follow up and no idea. They fritter around the edges pissing about with minor legislation, asking dumb questions of each other and building tin pot empires! The green agenda has given purpose the Joney Faraghers and Sarah Maltbys of this world, they can rant on about ill thought through policies which will be the ruination of the island and feel justified that the sixteen year old voters will back them to the hilt! 

The island is going to hell in a handcart, we have less and less to offer and be proud of, too much power in the hands of unqualified civil servants and lacklustre politicians who are clueless. 

I really should leave, but I love the place and it hurts to see what a total shambles we are! 

[Derek Flint]

46 minutes ago, Max Power said:

Our government has no strategic sense, no follow up and no idea. They fritter around the edges pissing about with minor legislation, asking dumb questions of each other and building tin pot empires! The green agenda has given purpose the Joney Faraghers and Sarah Maltbys of this world, they can rant on about ill thought through policies which will be the ruination of the island and feel justified that the sixteen year old voters will back them to the hilt! 

The island is going to hell in a handcart, we have less and less to offer and be proud of, too much power in the hands of unqualified civil servants and lacklustre politicians who are clueless. 

I really should leave, but I love the place and it hurts to see what a total shambles we are! 

I think the problem is many of us understand how good the place could be. Your synopsis is spot on, but suggest it to anyone in government and you are looked at like you've got two heads

[2112]

32 minutes ago, Derek Flint said:

I think the problem is many of us understand how good the place could be. Your synopsis is spot on, but suggest it to anyone in government and you are looked at like you've got two heads

………. and 3 legs

[snowman]

Why 30 years?

[The Bastard]

4 hours ago, Derek Flint said:

My opinion on the green agenda? An unnecessary and poorly thought out package of virtue signalling which will make no meaningful or measurable contribution to global emissions, cost the Island dearly and further blunt any competitive edge that once existed.

Don't think you understand it. The "green agenda" for the island is more about reducing dependence on external sources of energy rather than an attempt to single-handedly resolve global warming.

We've already seen how vulnerable the energy economy is to events like the war in Ukraine. That dynamic changes if we're generating our own power from renewables. That supply can no longer be affected by external factors, and the environmental benefits are a nice extra.

Pricing no longer changes based on the politics of supply, and energy occupies less of the budget for families and businesses. The economy improves as a result - people have more to spend, and businesses have greater profit margins, and can use more energy. More businesses stay in business and look to move here. The island becomes more competitive, not less.

We become a supplier of clean, green excess energy that other virtue-signaling nations nearby will want to buy in quantity.

It needs initial investment, yes, but that's like buying a car needs you to stump up the cash and buy some petrol before you can drive it.

[asitis]

6 hours ago, The Bastard said:

Don't think you understand it. The "green agenda" for the island is more about reducing dependence on external sources of energy rather than an attempt to single-handedly resolve global warming.

We've already seen how vulnerable the energy economy is to events like the war in Ukraine. That dynamic changes if we're generating our own power from renewables. That supply can no longer be affected by external factors, and the environmental benefits are a nice extra.

Pricing no longer changes based on the politics of supply, and energy occupies less of the budget for families and businesses. The economy improves as a result - people have more to spend, and businesses have greater profit margins, and can use more energy. More businesses stay in business and look to move here. The island becomes more competitive, not less.

We become a supplier of clean, green excess energy that other virtue-signaling nations nearby will want to buy in quantity.

It needs initial investment, yes, but that's like buying a car needs you to stump up the cash and buy some petrol before you can drive it.

I see the problem as we've frittered away the cash which is needed to really make a difference to our energy independence. I mean a tin shed on Merseyside for what will be 100 million, that could have gone some way towards a green project here !

[Derek Flint]

6 hours ago, The Bastard said:

Don't think you understand it. The "green agenda" for the island is more about reducing dependence on external sources of energy rather than an attempt to single-handedly resolve global warming.

We've already seen how vulnerable the energy economy is to events like the war in Ukraine. That dynamic changes if we're generating our own power from renewables. That supply can no longer be affected by external factors, and the environmental benefits are a nice extra.

Pricing no longer changes based on the politics of supply, and energy occupies less of the budget for families and businesses. The economy improves as a result - people have more to spend, and businesses have greater profit margins, and can use more energy. More businesses stay in business and look to move here. The island becomes more competitive, not less.

We become a supplier of clean, green excess energy that other virtue-signaling nations nearby will want to buy in quantity.

It needs initial investment, yes, but that's like buying a car needs you to stump up the cash and buy some petrol before you can drive it.

I get that entirely, but there is currently no meaningful storage method for green energy. Until the big boys have sorted that we need to hold. Alternatively it's buy nuclear in, and the UK is massively behind requirements already. 

The island just hasn't got the money to spend upstream on this. It either needs to calm down or get in bed with a partner to bring cost down.

And let's remember it's latest wheeze is to only allow ASHP from 2025. That isn't doing things the right way round. Once the cheap and resilient energy is in place, then impose the burden.

[2112]

When the island had money, in the days of the great VAT racket, an Eden style project could have been contemplated. All CM Cannan is doing with his meetings and grand presentations of hot air and nothing, his trying to ingratiate himself with the movers and the shakers of North West England developing, is embarrassing. Peel Group whilst it’s owner may live and have Manx Connections, but do they really care, or do they care for its balance sheet?

Any professional decent development organisation would make mincemeat of CM Cannan and others, will get away with taking whatever liberties they can, with the financial power and resources. The IOM is desperate for money, and its island plan is really a throw of the dice. 

[The Bastard]

1 hour ago, Derek Flint said:

I get that entirely, but there is currently no meaningful storage method for green energy. Until the big boys have sorted that we need to hold. Alternatively it's buy nuclear in, and the UK is massively behind requirements already. 

The island just hasn't got the money to spend upstream on this. It either needs to calm down or get in bed with a partner to bring cost down.

And let's remember it's latest wheeze is to only allow ASHP from 2025. That isn't doing things the right way round. Once the cheap and resilient energy is in place, then impose the burden.

I still don't think you understand it. Technology such as wind energy is mature and used worldwide. You can buy turbines off-the-shelf and you don't need to create a partnership to manage a process of bleeding-edge innovation, you just buy the kit that's being used already successfully in lots of other setups.

Energy storage is great for moving to an entirely green source of energy. The thing is, you don't actively need it in place for starting to contribute to your energy budget.

As a starting point you can buy a wind turbine and leave it generating electricity into the grid whenever it's windy, since electricity consumption never stops, and the less imported gas we use, the better for the Island.

Doesn't mean you need to build something like a renewable-powered reservoir pumping station as your first step, but further down the line that might be an option that cuts the use of expensive, volatile-priced gas by a massive amount.

Same rationale with ASHP. For new builds it makes sense. You don't need to be functioning on entirely green energy for an ASHP to work. They'll start out costing the householder broadly the same as fossil fuel, but without the huge volatility in pricing that affects Manx consumers of fossil fuels. As more and more energy becomes locally-produced from sustainables, energy costs will drop and become less vulnerable to external market forces. At that point you'd have to be nuts not to have one, and the people who will already have one thanks to the policy that insisted on them for new builds will be quids-in.

[Andy Onchan]

38 minutes ago, The Bastard said:

Doesn't mean you need to build something like a renewable-powered reservoir pumping station as your first step, but further down the line that might be an option that cuts the use of expensive, volatile-priced gas by a massive amount.

So are you suggesting that cheap energy is on the way, any time soon?

[The Bastard]

49 minutes ago, Andy Onchan said:

So are you suggesting that cheap energy is on the way, any time soon?

I can't predict the future with any accuracy. Otherwise I'd be living in a mansion in Hawaii, starting every day with multiple Pina Coladas before my chauffeur drives my Bentley to the cabana on the beach. My face would be hurting from all the smiling. 

That being said, looking ahead to a future based on renewables (since that's what been talked about for the past couple of posts), it's quite possible.

At the moment, the IOM is vulnerable to fluctuations in the energy market - people are struggling with gas bills and businesses are closing because they can't afford to put the oven on.

At the moment, this is all precipitated by the situation in Ukraine, and by profiteering in the market. We're effectively not in control of our own destiny, and vulnerable to fluctuations in the market that are entirely outside our control.

Moving towards generation from renewables takes us away from that. There are elements that are both short-term costs and major investments, but we've always had to deal with that - look at the times we've had to build new power stations and interconnectors for our existing fossil fuel infrastructure. 

Moving towards renewables could mean cheaper energy simply because there are no middlemen controlling supply and pricing for the source of energy.

Once you've made the initial investment, and paid for ongoing maintenance, the cost of supply doesn't vary. Solar, wind, geothermal, tide doesn't vary in price according to the political situation in Iran, Yemen, Taiwan or Russia, or whether a drunk tanker captain has blocked the Suez. It just delivers energy continually at a fixed cost.

The more you move towards that model, and invest carefully in the technology to store or combine those energies, the less you have to buy in expensive fossil fuel, and the less volatile energy pricing becomes. When you combine that with an ability to resell excess energy to other nearby countries that are desperate for green options, it becomes even more of an attractive option.

As mentioned, cheap energy from renewables stimulates the economy - people have more disposable income, businesses are able to generate revenue and look to move here. It's a no-think.

[Moghrey Mie]

3 hours ago, The Bastard said:

I still don't think you understand it. Technology such as wind energy is mature and used worldwide. You can buy turbines off-the-shelf and you don't need to create a partnership to manage a process of bleeding-edge innovation, you just buy the kit that's being used already successfully in lots of other setups.

Energy storage is great for moving to an entirely green source of energy. The thing is, you don't actively need it in place for starting to contribute to your energy budget.

As a starting point you can buy a wind turbine and leave it generating electricity into the grid whenever it's windy, since electricity consumption never stops, and the less imported gas we use, the better for the Island.

Doesn't mean you need to build something like a renewable-powered reservoir pumping station as your first step, but further down the line that might be an option that cuts the use of expensive, volatile-priced gas by a massive amount.

Same rationale with ASHP. For new builds it makes sense. You don't need to be functioning on entirely green energy for an ASHP to work. They'll start out costing the householder broadly the same as fossil fuel, but without the huge volatility in pricing that affects Manx consumers of fossil fuels. As more and more energy becomes locally-produced from sustainables, energy costs will drop and become less vulnerable to external market forces. At that point you'd have to be nuts not to have one, and the people who will already have one thanks to the policy that insisted on them for new builds will be quids-in.

I think our grid needs strengthening before it can accept a large amount of renewable energy.

https://www.tynwald.org.im/spfile?file=/business/opqp/sittings/20212026/2023-GD-0023.pdf

Edited April 4, 2023 by Moghrey Mie

[Dirty Buggane]

3 hours ago, The Bastard said:

I can't predict the future with any accuracy. Otherwise I'd be living in a mansion in Hawaii, starting every day with multiple Pina Coladas before my chauffeur drives my Bentley to the cabana on the beach. My face would be hurting from all the smiling. 

That being said, looking ahead to a future based on renewables (since that's what been talked about for the past couple of posts), it's quite possible.

At the moment, the IOM is vulnerable to fluctuations in the energy market - people are struggling with gas bills and businesses are closing because they can't afford to put the oven on.

At the moment, this is all precipitated by the situation in Ukraine, and by profiteering in the market. We're effectively not in control of our own destiny, and vulnerable to fluctuations in the market that are entirely outside our control.

Moving towards generation from renewables takes us away from that. There are elements that are both short-term costs and major investments, but we've always had to deal with that - look at the times we've had to build new power stations and interconnectors for our existing fossil fuel infrastructure. 

Moving towards renewables could mean cheaper energy simply because there are no middlemen controlling supply and pricing for the source of energy.

Once you've made the initial investment, and paid for ongoing maintenance, the cost of supply doesn't vary. Solar, wind, geothermal, tide doesn't vary in price according to the political situation in Iran, Yemen, Taiwan or Russia, or whether a drunk tanker captain has blocked the Suez. It just delivers energy continually at a fixed cost.

The more you move towards that model, and invest carefully in the technology to store or combine those energies, the less you have to buy in expensive fossil fuel, and the less volatile energy pricing becomes. When you combine that with an ability to resell excess energy to other nearby countries that are desperate for green options, it becomes even more of an attractive option.

As mentioned, cheap energy from renewables stimulates the economy - people have more disposable income, businesses are able to generate revenue and look to move here. It's a no-think.

After all this hot air the one major drawback is. The government is skint they are going to charge you eye watering amounts for what ever they supply. Gas/water/sewage/  electricity are all going to cost way above the odds, that is just to pay the interest on the loans/pensions and what ever other fuck up they have made and is still being paid for by us. Even if the price of the wind or solar or hydro was pennys we will still be paying pounds because they have fucked us over the years the coffers are empty. But they still want the gravy train with the silver service buffet car to keep rolling for the few and civil service whom seen to think the public are there just to pay for there largesse and pension. End of rant 

[Andy Onchan]

4 hours ago, The Bastard said:

I can't predict the future with any accuracy. Otherwise I'd be living in a mansion in Hawaii, starting every day with multiple Pina Coladas before my chauffeur drives my Bentley to the cabana on the beach. My face would be hurting from all the smiling. 

That being said, looking ahead to a future based on renewables (since that's what been talked about for the past couple of posts), it's quite possible.

At the moment, the IOM is vulnerable to fluctuations in the energy market - people are struggling with gas bills and businesses are closing because they can't afford to put the oven on.

At the moment, this is all precipitated by the situation in Ukraine, and by profiteering in the market. We're effectively not in control of our own destiny, and vulnerable to fluctuations in the market that are entirely outside our control.

Moving towards generation from renewables takes us away from that. There are elements that are both short-term costs and major investments, but we've always had to deal with that - look at the times we've had to build new power stations and interconnectors for our existing fossil fuel infrastructure. 

Moving towards renewables could mean cheaper energy simply because there are no middlemen controlling supply and pricing for the source of energy.

Once you've made the initial investment, and paid for ongoing maintenance, the cost of supply doesn't vary. Solar, wind, geothermal, tide doesn't vary in price according to the political situation in Iran, Yemen, Taiwan or Russia, or whether a drunk tanker captain has blocked the Suez. It just delivers energy continually at a fixed cost.

The more you move towards that model, and invest carefully in the technology to store or combine those energies, the less you have to buy in expensive fossil fuel, and the less volatile energy pricing becomes. When you combine that with an ability to resell excess energy to other nearby countries that are desperate for green options, it becomes even more of an attractive option.

As mentioned, cheap energy from renewables stimulates the economy - people have more disposable income, businesses are able to generate revenue and look to move here. It's a no-think.

As much as I would like to believe all of this will happen, it won't any time soon and that's according to MUA themselves. And neither will it be cheap energy. The legacy of prior projects has still to be paid for. I'm nearer to 70 than 60 and I reckon there'll still be massive debt to be serviced by the time I pop my clogs and probably by the time you snuff it as well.