Fluoride

[Andy Onchan]

On 4/14/2023 at 1:29 PM, Happier diner said:

 

I always thought it was a Scottish tradition

No, that's hen's teeth.

[Happier diner]

16 minutes ago, WTF said:

but as our water consumption isn't regulated how can it be dosed to suit everyone ?

Not sure what you mean by 'regulated' 

I would have thought it was put in in proportion to the flow of water which would be very basic process control. 

[HeliX]

20 minutes ago, Happier diner said:

Not sure what you mean by 'regulated' 

I would have thought it was put in in proportion to the flow of water which would be very basic process control. 

Person A drinks 10 pints of water a day. Child B drinks 200ml and the rest fruit juice/coke/beer. What's the right dosage...

[Dirty Buggane]

Nicotine is a poison, and a very powerful and dangerous one. Still people take it, like most drugs too much bad. Just enough good, it is getting the balance right. You may want to take more notice of the warning on your toothpaste.   Especially if they start dosing the water, once they start it would take years if not decades to flush it out of the water system if we decided no we do not want it anymore.

Supply households with bottles of fluoridated water delivered by the milk person if that is peoples choice, allow it to be by choice and not forced on to us or will this be another failure of the Cannan years.

[Happier diner]

20 minutes ago, HeliX said:

Person A drinks 10 pints of water a day. Child B drinks 200ml and the rest fruit juice/coke/beer. What's the right dosage...

I get that. I have no idea TBH. If I think about it, perhaps its about getting more fluoride into peoples diet and bodies. You are right, its not possible to give everyone the same amount. Surely someone has thought this through. I imagine there is a safety margin so that the chap who drinks 10pints a day still consumes a safe amount of fluoride.

I see some more research here

 

 

[HeliX]

6 minutes ago, Happier diner said:

I get that. I have no idea TBH. If I think about it, perhaps its about getting more fluoride into peoples diet and bodies. You are right, its not possible to give everyone the same amount. Surely someone has thought this through. I imagine there is a safety margin so that the chap who drinks 10pints a day still consumes a safe amount of fluoride.

I see some more research here

 

 

It's just a rubbish solution to do it at the population-level via water fluoridation IMO. Fluoride is most effective applied topically. Unless you're swilling all your water round your mouth before swallowing it, it's a rubbish delivery method. Just give out fluoride-containing toothpaste in primary schools instead.

[Happier diner]

13 minutes ago, Dirty Buggane said:

Nicotine is a poison, and a very powerful and dangerous one. Still people take it, like most drugs too much bad. Just enough good, it is getting the balance right. You may want to take more notice of the warning on your toothpaste.   Especially if they start dosing the water, once they start it would take years if not decades to flush it out of the water system if we decided no we do not want it anymore.

Supply households with bottles of fluoridated water delivered by the milk person if that is peoples choice, allow it to be by choice and not forced on to us or will this be another failure of the Cannan years.

How do you work this one out. Where does the water hide for years? Surely it would be gone in a day.

I found this paper on line

https://www.cdhjournal.org/issues/33-4-december-2016/801-prevalence-and-severity-of-dental-fluorosis-in-four-english-cities

 

[wrighty]

Overall I'd be in favour of providing a low level of fluoride in drinking water - 0.5-1.0mg/L

https://apps.who.int/iris/rest/bitstreams/1257901/retrieve

Like most things there's a balance to be found.  No fluoride is bad.  Too much is bad.  A little bit does some good, and does no bad.  I get the objections, and that people don't want to be poisoned by the government, but this is what governments and public health departments are for.  Personally I don't need vitamin enrichment in my Rice Crispies, but it doesn't cause me any harm so I'm not going to moan too much about it (I don't eat Rice Crispies - it's an example of mass medication that doesn't seem to cause too much outcry)

I would of course advocate education regarding dental hygiene, giving out toothpaste and brushes in schools, and even having a school initiative when kids were encouraged to brush their teeth after lunch.  

[HeliX]

2 minutes ago, wrighty said:

I don't eat Rice Crispies - it's an example of mass medication that doesn't seem to cause too much outcry

Sure but the difference is you can just buy a different cereal... you can't opt-in to a different water provider.

[wrighty]

5 minutes ago, HeliX said:

Sure but the difference is you can just buy a different cereal... you can't opt-in to a different water provider.

Why would you want to? Rational arguments only please.

[Happier diner]

37 minutes ago, HeliX said:

It's just a rubbish solution to do it at the population-level via water fluoridation IMO. Fluoride is most effective applied topically. Unless you're swilling all your water round your mouth before swallowing it, it's a rubbish delivery method. Just give out fluoride-containing toothpaste in primary schools instead.

I don't disagree.  I was sayin its not poison

[HeliX]

Just now, wrighty said:

Why would you want to? Rational arguments only please.

Because there's no benefit for me to having fluoridated water, and the jury is out on whether there is long term risk associated with it - particularly as I drink a frankly outrageous amount of water. So even if that risk is almost 0, it's still not quite 0.

0 risk and 0 benefit is preferable to non-0 risk and 0 benefit.

[Happier diner]

3 minutes ago, HeliX said:

the jury is out on whether there is long term risk associated with it

The Jury has been out for over 70 years. Unless they all died of Fluoride poisoning I think its fair to assume there is no long term health risk.

[HeliX]

4 minutes ago, Happier diner said:

The Jury has been out for over 70 years. Unless they all died of Fluoride poisoning I think its fair to assume there is no long term health risk.

Dunno about that, there's plenty of literature questioning whether the effectiveness of water fluoridation outweighs the potential risks. Obviously with anything population-level it's difficult to effectively control studies, but I think describing the risk as non-zero is fair.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6195894/

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/magazine/magazine_article/fluoridated-drinking-water/

 

Something else I forgot to mention in my previous post, water fluoridation also causes hassle for parents who are bottle feeding as you're supposed to avoid using fluoridated water for making up formula. Which is because it's not entirely safe...  

[wrighty]

36 minutes ago, HeliX said:

Because there's no benefit for me to having fluoridated water, and the jury is out on whether there is long term risk associated with it - particularly as I drink a frankly outrageous amount of water. So even if that risk is almost 0, it's still not quite 0.

0 risk and 0 benefit is preferable to non-0 risk and 0 benefit.

Well according to that WHO article there is a benefit for both children and adults in having fluoride in water, so your benefit is also non-zero.  Overall, I think the evidence for fluoride is positive.  

Are there any additives to the water supply you'd tolerate? Stuff to make it safe for example.  You might personally not need any of course, but if for the greater good...