Josem Posted May 15, 2023 Share Posted May 15, 2023 2 hours ago, HeliX said: It is almost impossible to control studies for something added to the water supply. But we know that too much fluoride is harmful. We know that people drink vastly differing quantities of water. We know that fluoride is most effective (and safest) when topically applied rather than swallowed. What is this harm? Do you think that there are many people in the Republic of Ireland who suffer from this harm? Or in Australia/USA/Canada/New Zealand? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted May 15, 2023 Share Posted May 15, 2023 56 minutes ago, Happier diner said: Like I said. It's not like diamonds. It's an element. There are strict controls on what you can use. If you are talking about it being contaminated with things that are not fluoride that could apply to anything we use/eat/drink in life. So are diamonds an element - carbon. Strict controls. Yep, we've heard all about those. Like the ones they had at Chernobyl, or Windscale, or the strictly binding security guarantees given to Ukraine in the Budapest Memorandum. If there's one thing we know for sure in this life, it's that shit happens. Why go looking for it when you really don't need to? And as for the water authority here, they need to try harder in getting the chlorination levels right before they graduate to anything more demanding or controversial. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted May 15, 2023 Share Posted May 15, 2023 22 minutes ago, Josem said: What is this harm? Do you think that there are many people in the Republic of Ireland who suffer from this harm? Or in Australia/USA/Canada/New Zealand? Fluorosis, damaging effect on child development, cost to benefit ratio, potential link to thyroid problems. Difficult to measure the harms on a country-wide level, but given better options available it seems daft to risk the harms. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted May 15, 2023 Share Posted May 15, 2023 17 minutes ago, woolley said: So are diamonds an element - carbon. Strict controls. Yep, we've heard all about those. Like the ones they had at Chernobyl, or Windscale, or the strictly binding security guarantees given to Ukraine in the Budapest Memorandum. If there's one thing we know for sure in this life, it's that shit happens. Why go looking for it when you really don't need to? And as for the water authority here, they need to try harder in getting the chlorination levels right before they graduate to anything more demanding or controversial. Not to be a knob (well, maybe), but diamonds are not an element. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Mexico Posted May 15, 2023 Share Posted May 15, 2023 1 minute ago, HeliX said: Not to be a knob (well, maybe), but diamonds are not an element. Yes they are: Diamond is a solid form of the element carbon (the technical term is allotrope). Whereas a fluoride is a compound of the element fluorine, so it isn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted May 15, 2023 Share Posted May 15, 2023 (edited) 11 minutes ago, HeliX said: Not to be a knob (well, maybe), but diamonds are not an element. Carbon is an element. It expresses as 3 allotropes, one of which is diamond, and all of which are 100% carbon. For the purposes of this discussion it is an element and 100% naturally occuring - or industrially processed, like fluoride. Edited May 15, 2023 by woolley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted May 15, 2023 Share Posted May 15, 2023 3 minutes ago, Roger Mexico said: Yes they are: Diamond is a solid form of the element carbon (the technical term is allotrope). Whereas a fluoride is a compound of the element fluorine, so it isn't. 3 minutes ago, woolley said: Carbon is an element. It expresses as 3 allotropes, all of which are 100% carbon. For the purposes of this discussion it is an element and 100% naturally occuring - or industrially processed, like fluoride. It's been a long time since my last Chemistry class, but I'm reasonably confident that an allotorope is not the same as an element and that "element" specifically implies non-bonded. Though I am willing to be wrong and also a double-knob for being a knob about being wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted May 15, 2023 Share Posted May 15, 2023 1 minute ago, HeliX said: It's been a long time since my last Chemistry class, but I'm reasonably confident that an allotorope is not the same as an element and that "element" specifically implies non-bonded. Though I am willing to be wrong and also a double-knob for being a knob about being wrong. Well if it's bonded, it's only bonded with itself because it's 100% carbon, as is graphite. Same stuff, but differently arranged atoms within the molecule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted May 15, 2023 Share Posted May 15, 2023 1 minute ago, woolley said: Well if it's bonded, it's only bonded with itself because it's 100% carbon, as is graphite. Same stuff, but differently arranged atoms within the molecule. The internet suggests that everything is made up and the points don't matter. https://chemistry.stackexchange.com/questions/102078/calling-diamond-an-element Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happier diner Posted May 15, 2023 Share Posted May 15, 2023 1 minute ago, woolley said: Well if it's bonded, it's only bonded with itself because it's 100% carbon, as is graphite. Same stuff, but differently arranged atoms within the molecule. You are correct o some repscts. But diamonds are not put into water supply or food. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happier diner Posted May 15, 2023 Share Posted May 15, 2023 I think my view has not been understood . Probably my fault. 1. Do I think fluoridation works. Yes 2. Do I think it safe. Yes 3. Do I think we should adopt it. No. Great debate today though. That's why we are here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted May 15, 2023 Share Posted May 15, 2023 16 minutes ago, Happier diner said: You are correct o some repscts. But diamonds are not put into water supply or food. Well you might break your teeth on them but they wouldn't have a slow acting effect on you over many years. This cannot be guaranteed with fluoridation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted May 15, 2023 Share Posted May 15, 2023 21 minutes ago, HeliX said: The internet suggests that everything is made up and the points don't matter. I love that. It stands on its own. I don't need the link. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolley Posted May 15, 2023 Share Posted May 15, 2023 14 minutes ago, Happier diner said: I think my view has not been understood . Probably my fault. 1. Do I think fluoridation works. Yes 2. Do I think it safe. Yes 3. Do I think we should adopt it. No. Great debate today though. That's why we are here. Why not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarndyce Posted May 15, 2023 Share Posted May 15, 2023 MF is awash with experts in solid-state physical chemistry - who knew? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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