Fluoride

[wrighty]

1 minute ago, Happier diner said:

Dissolved fluoride has nothing in common with diesel. It has no taste or smell and its only dosed at 1 part per million

And of course diesel is not water soluble, so it's not going to wash away or leach out of the container very easily at all.

[Happier diner]

9 minutes ago, HeliX said:

You asked for evidence of harms from areas with high levels of naturally-occuring fluoride in the water supply, I wasn't suggesting it was a comparison with artificial fluoridation. I was answering your request!

There is no difference between artificial or natural fluoride. Its the anion of an element. F-

It only has one form and that is absolute

It is fully dissociated in water. Makes no difference where it comes from

If you are talking impurities in the fluoride containing substance that is used that's a different subject and you could say that about any additive to water/food

 

[Happier diner]

2 minutes ago, HeliX said:

The amount of chlorine used is by volume of water - it's the amount required to make the volume of water you're drinking safe. It's also fairly necessary.

The fluoride is not targeted at the volume of water - it's irrespective of it (EDIT: To clarify this because I've worded it badly, it's applied per volume of course, but the intended treatment is not per volume, it's per-person). It's unknown how much the end-user will consume. It also targets exactly the wrong people - the people who need it most are kids who are primarily drinking juice and pop. The people who need it least are adults who are drinking primarily water. But the dosing targets the absolute opposite of that - unavoidably. I can't think of any other medication we'd apply in such a topsy-turvy and arbitrary way. Though perhaps wrighty can

That'll be like vitamins then

[wrighty]

1 minute ago, HeliX said:

 I can't think of any other medication we'd apply in such a topsy-turvy and arbitrary way. Though perhaps wrighty can

There are parallels with vaccination and lacing cereals/bread with vitamins - folic acid supplements to prevent neural tube defects for example.  

[Happier diner]

2 minutes ago, wrighty said:

And of course diesel is not water soluble, so it's not going to wash away or leach out of the container very easily at all.

It was a terrible comparison in many ways

 

[HeliX]

2 minutes ago, Happier diner said:

There is no difference between artificial or natural fluoride. Its the anion of an element. F-

It only has one form and that is absolute

It is fully dissociated in water. Makes no difference where it comes from

If you are talking impurities in the fluoride containing substance that is used that's a different subject and you could say that about any additive to water/food

 

I wasn't suggesting it was incomparable chemically with fluoride added artificially, I was (again) replying to someone else's statement:

Quote

I’m not sure this paper provides a valid comparison, unless IOM plans to reclaim and drink concentrated ground water.

The comparison (or lack of) was in terms of dosage, not what the content.

[HeliX]

2 minutes ago, wrighty said:

There are parallels with vaccination and lacing cereals/bread with vitamins - folic acid supplements to prevent neural tube defects for example.  

But it's easy for the end-user to make choices around that. In my view adding fluoride to water is analogous to adding vitamins to broccoli instead of rice krispies.

[Roxanne]

Just now, wrighty said:

There are parallels with vaccination and lacing cereals/bread with vitamins - folic acid supplements to prevent neural tube defects for example.  

My comment that is that we are not forced into taking vaccinations or eating cereal. If we don't want to have the substances from these things in our body then we can choose not too. Putting fluoride in the water system removes that choice. Everyone gets a dose whether they need/want it.

It's the thin edge of the wedge for me.

[HeliX]

6 minutes ago, Happier diner said:

That'll be like vitamins then

A bit, except the end-user is also in control of that. If I go for a run I don't feel much of a need to eat 10 extra bowls of rice krispies. But I do rather unavoidably have to drink a load of extra water!

[Happier diner]

1 minute ago, Roxanne said:

My comment that is that we are not forced into taking vaccinations or eating cereal. If we don't want to have the substances from these things in our body then we can choose not too. Putting fluoride in the water system removes that choice. Everyone gets a dose whether they need/want it.

It's the thin edge of the wedge for me.

That's the crux of the argument really. Everything else (IMO) is bullshit really. Its an ethical decision. I guess the Health Professionals have to weigh up whether the benefits outweigh the disadvantages. I don't see a risk to health but I do see why people have strong views against it.

Whatever the case, its definitely gaining momentum all over the world.

[Happier diner]

1 minute ago, HeliX said:

A bit, except the end-user is also in control of that. If I go for a run I don't feel much of a need to eat 10 extra bowls of rice krispies. But I do rather unavoidably have to drink a load of extra water!

Vitamins occur in many (Maybe even all nutritious)foods. The end user has no control unless they analyse everything they eat. I think addition of fluoride is similar in that respect. The more you get the better - up to a point then it becomes no benefit and then harmful as the intake rises.

[woolley]

13 minutes ago, Happier diner said:

There is no difference between artificial or natural fluoride. Its the anion of an element. F-

It only has one form and that is absolute

It is fully dissociated in water. Makes no difference where it comes from

If you are talking impurities in the fluoride containing substance that is used that's a different subject and you could say that about any additive to water/food

 

Obviously there is a difference between naturally occurring and adding an industrial byproduct. No thanks!

[HeliX]

1 minute ago, Happier diner said:

Vitamins occur in many (Maybe even all nutritious)foods. The end user has no control unless they analyse everything they eat. I think addition of fluoride is similar in that respect. The more you get the better - up to a point then it becomes no benefit and then harmful as the intake rises.

It's difficult to get harmful levels of vitamins from food intake though. If you put enough fluoride in the water supply to save the teeth of little Timmy who drinks 250ml a day and the rest full-fat coke, the level is probably not going to be appropriate for Alan who drinks 8 pints of water every day, and who likely doesn't need any fluoride to keep his teeth in good condition regardless.

It's just a completely rubbish delivery method that misses exactly the people who need the help, and over-medicates those who do not. It's big daft and it'll take something fairly significant to change my mind I expect!

[Josem]

20 minutes ago, Roxanne said:

It's the thin edge of the wedge for me.

What does this mean? Do you think that other communities which started adding fluoride generations ago are now adding additional stuff in the water? Why would each such things not just be considered on their own merits?

[Josem]

13 minutes ago, HeliX said:

...the level is probably not going to be appropriate for Alan who drinks 8 pints of water every day, and who likely doesn't need any fluoride to keep his teeth in good condition regardless.

It's just a completely rubbish delivery method that misses exactly the people who need the help, and over-medicates those who do not. It's big daft and it'll take something fairly significant to change my mind I expect!

Are you aware of any cases in the modern/developed/Western world of people being harmed by having too much fluoride in their water supply? Do you think that such cases are common in the Republic of Ireland? Do you think that the people of North America, Australia or New Zealand are suffering very much because of their treatments?