ButterflyMaiden Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 Don't take this the wrong way, but are you really the one to know how it affects a males judgement of females? If you want to make assertions as such, when you're not in the position to test your thesis, then supply us with some credible source?Pornography is entertainment. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No problem about taking anything the wrong way .... I have already offered you credible sources ..either Dworkin or McKinnon will produce numerous results in any search engine. Downside to Dworkin, in my opinion, is that notwithstanding her high quality research and well constructed arguments, she arrived at inappropriate conclusions. Both have extensive bibligraphies and you will have to spend some time reading the arguments. With all due respect to yourself (and Matty), you have both made a number of assertions and ... you havent offered any supporting evidence ... why should you totally ignore the two references I have provided ? Perhaps it would be helpul, anyhow, to return to my original argument that I do not understand the UK Government logic in proposing to ban violent pornography. Given my belief, which is shared by numerous others, that all pornography embodies violence against women ... and please see my argument the violence is structural not personal ... then surely all pornography should be banned. For the avoidance of doubt ... I do not believe this is ever likely to happen neither do I believe it is necessarily the correct thing to do. I merely made an observation. In reply to Matty ..... I have read your posts before and I do not believe for one moment you do not understand what a continuum is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matty Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 From a quick "google" on the "Dworkin & McKinnon" "There are still certainly feminists who do not oppose pornography and object strongly to the focus on pornography to the exclusion of other issues of women's subordination, but it is Dworkin's and MacKinnon's line which has been the most successful in gathering wide support. FACT (Feminist Anti-Censorship Task Force) was formed in 1984 to argue the anti-Dworkin view and to stress that supporting greater restriction of freedom of speech was likely to end up supporting anti-feminist elements. Indeed, feminism and the moral and religious right seem to make strange bed-fellows. Nevertheless, it is Dworkin's and McKinnon's radical feminist view which has received most media attention, to the extent that many now think it is the only feminist position on pornography. Thus, the question of whether or not pornography does indeed cause harm is central to the most prominent feminist case." Seems to me you have taken the most radical feminist approach to defend your case (I kind of see it like a bit like a racist using BNP propoganda to further their cause). Personally I don't see Dworkin & McKinnon as being any sort of a credible source, I beleive you have taken these (IMHO) very radical assertions to be generally held consensus when quite clearly they aren't. Obviously we're coming from different directions here - but for you to quote from a couple of very outspoken and extrememley radical sources , and take them seriously (even though you doubt their data) is not really a good defense. Maybe now I understand how you feel that all porn "embodies violence against women" - but myself, and many other posters here would clearly disagree. Just added:- "Porn" conference Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButterflyMaiden Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 Seems to me you have taken the most radical feminist approach to defend your case (I kind of see it like a bit like a racist using BNP propoganda to further their cause). I really dont think you have read a word Ive posted .. you might recall it was me who posited pornography as analogous to racism .. Personally I don't see Dworkin & McKinnon as being any sort of a credible source, I beleive you have taken these (IMHO) very radical assertions to be generally held consensus when quite clearly they aren't. well you are entitled to an opinion. However, you would find yourself in a minority. Both Dworkin and McKinnon are held in high esteem for the quality of their research. I have made the point more than once that I dont agree with their conclusions. Obviously we're coming from different directions here - but for you to quote from a couple of very outspoken and extrememley radical sources , and take them seriously (even though you doubt their data) is not really a good defense. I dont have any issue with the data used by either Dworkin or McKinnon. I do, however dispute the conclusions they have drawn from high quality research and well constructed arguments. It is my opinion their conclusions are subjective and extreme. This doesnt reflect on the quality of their data or their arguments Maybe now I understand how you feel that all porn "embodies violence against women" - but myself, and many other posters here would clearly disagree. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> It would be a very boring world to live in if we all agreed on every subject !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ans Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 Both Dworkin and McKinnon are held in high esteem for the quality of their research. People held in high esteem for their research are rarely referred to as 'radical feminists'. I would suggest that only radical feminists would hold that view. People held in high esteem aren't often known for their support of incest either The parent-child relationship is primarily erotic because all human relationships are primarily erotic. ... The destruction of the incest taboo is essential to the development of cooperative human community based on the free-flow of natural androgynous eroticism. Nutter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButterflyMaiden Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 People held in high esteem for their research are rarely referred to as 'radical feminists'. I would suggest that only radical feminists would hold that view. In the UK Germaine Greer, a well respected academic, is a good example of a radical feminist held in high esteem by her peers in the the academic world. She is actually very interesting in that she has moved her position to liberal feminist in recent years ..although I suspect she would vehemently deny that is the case ! People held in high esteem aren't often known for their support of incest eitherThe parent-child relationship is primarily erotic because all human relationships are primarily erotic. ... The destruction of the incest taboo is essential to the development of cooperative human community based on the free-flow of natural androgynous eroticism. Nutter. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I hope you are calling Dworkin a nutter and not me! She was a strange woman who produced some exceptionally good work. She was regarded very highly during most of her career. However, and it is a big however, she also drew some highly controversial conclusions from her work. I have always found her conclusions subjective, controversial and, in my opinion, unrelated to the body of her work. It would be interesting to examine the context of the quote you have posted ..could you send me a hyperlink ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Sausages Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 She so fancied her dad And her dog, it seems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButterflyMaiden Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 She so fancied her dad And her dog, it seems. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Not offered in her defence ! ..but opinions clearly differ. I havent read the full work so am unable to pass an opinion ... LINK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theintelligentthug Posted September 1, 2005 Share Posted September 1, 2005 PORN; anything lacking in artistic merit, that causes sexual thought. i think we could all agree on that definition. so, i reckon we should ban Ann Summers shops. a family run, repeat, FAMILY RUN business, that profits from the sales of items promoting submissive/dominative roles in the bedroom. i also reckon we should ban push up bras. as butterflymaiden said "porn reduces women to merely a number of body parts that men find attractive" (ive paraphrased). is a push up bra not merely enhancing body parts that men find attractive? couldnt the same be said about make up, to a lesser opr greater degree? its a silly, silly law. one that is completey unenforceable, and easily avoided in an age of camera phones and such. fine, ban "violent porn" (whatever "violent" and "porn" are defined as), and i guarantee, youll have a much higher statistic of violent sexual crimes against women. most of the "actresses" in porn are there voluntarily. they are there to be looked at, they understand what they are doing, they understand the consequences. if they want to do it, let them. theyll simply find another way if you ban them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slim Posted September 1, 2005 Share Posted September 1, 2005 “The second most preposterous notion [that H. Sapiens has ever dreamed up] is that copulation is inherently sinful.” - Lazarus Long Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theintelligentthug Posted September 1, 2005 Share Posted September 1, 2005 sex is bad! WHERE WAS I WHEN YOU HAD THAT MEETING? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ans Posted September 1, 2005 Share Posted September 1, 2005 PORN; anything lacking in artistic merit, that causes sexual thought. i think we could all agree on that definition. I don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theintelligentthug Posted September 1, 2005 Share Posted September 1, 2005 PORN; anything lacking in artistic merit, that causes sexual thought. i think we could all agree on that definition. I don't. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> fair enough. i do though. so nerrr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
When Skies Are Grey Posted September 1, 2005 Share Posted September 1, 2005 PORN; anything lacking in artistic merit, that causes sexual thought. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That makes Maria Sharipova pornographic then...IMHO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theintelligentthug Posted September 1, 2005 Share Posted September 1, 2005 PORN; anything lacking in artistic merit, that causes sexual thought. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That makes Maria Sharipova pornographic then...IMHO <{POST_SNAPBACK}> not to mention madonna videos, christina aguilera videos, any advert for aftershave or perfume made within the last twenty years, loaded, nuts, zoo, amateur photographer...... sex sells Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puddy Posted September 1, 2005 Share Posted September 1, 2005 They can't seem to advertise men's toiletries without using a beautiful woman in the ads. "Hey boys, use this new razor/deodorant/aftershave/toothpaste and you'll be needing the free sh*tty stick which comes with it, to fight them all off." On the other hand, with women's adverts they prefer to tell us how fat/old/ugly we all are. Nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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