The Voice of Reason Posted August 13, 2023 Share Posted August 13, 2023 8 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said: I didn’t think you would. So there is nothing for me to get over. It’s what I expected. I thought I’d just afford you the opportunity to do the decent thing. No matter. You may well insert a smiley emoticon but I hope you, your family and those you love never have to face the challenges that mental health problems bring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted August 13, 2023 Share Posted August 13, 2023 (edited) Duplicate Edited August 13, 2023 by The Voice of Reason Duplicate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted August 13, 2023 Share Posted August 13, 2023 1 hour ago, The Voice of Reason said: You may well insert a smiley emoticon but I hope you, your family and those you love never have to face the challenges that mental health problems bring. I have suffered with depression so don't pretend you know anything about me. What I can do, which you seem incapable of, is to empathise with people. In this particular case it is with trans people. They make up a tiny proportion of our society and yet the media attention, the bullying, harassment and abuse they are subjected to is horrendous. How many trans people do you think will suffer as a result of the hate that is being spread against them? How many will read some of your posts where you cannot separate sex and gender and insinuate that trans people must be mentally ill? The funny thing is that transgender isn't new. It's been around for centuries. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WTF Posted August 14, 2023 Share Posted August 14, 2023 7 hours ago, manxman1980 said: The funny thing is that transgender isn't new. It's been around for centuries. true , but for some reason we are all having shoved down our throats at the moment by the we want to be offended brigade. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2bees Posted August 14, 2023 Share Posted August 14, 2023 If trans people are quiet and get on with being humans all well and good, but as with everything there are those who go around behaving like brats and bleating a load of nonsense. We were at a trans rights protest in London a few months ago (with my friend the trans lady) since when did anyone leave the house wearing their “sex dungeon” outfit? Apparently this is what some trans women think is appropriate day wear (a small percentage but they were very noticeable!) and then there was a group of lesbians who were protesting against trans people having the same rights as them - the world has gone mad! Live and let love - but not in public 🤗 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manxman1980 Posted August 14, 2023 Share Posted August 14, 2023 54 minutes ago, WTF said: true , but for some reason we are all having shoved down our throats at the moment by the we want to be offended brigade. But you aren't... The ones shoving it down your throat are the right wing media and politicians who want a culture war to distract from their corruption and/or incompetence. 50 minutes ago, 2bees said: Apparently this is what some trans women think is appropriate day wear (a small percentage but they were very noticeable!) and then there was a group of lesbians who were protesting against trans people having the same rights as them - the world has gone mad! Not much to say on the "dungeon wear" but I have not seen any trans person dressed in that manner outside events such as Pride where it would not be so uncommon. The lesbian angle is interesting and one that I think is more difficult. They are accused of being transphobic if they refuse to date a transwoman. They also feel that their safe spaces are being encroached upon. I do have a lesbian friend who is very anti-trans for those reasons. Again I can understand that but still feel transpeople should not be harassed or discriminated against. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackwhite Posted August 14, 2023 Share Posted August 14, 2023 (edited) 7 hours ago, 2bees said: If trans people are quiet and get on with being humans all well and good, but as with everything there are those who go around behaving like brats and bleating a load of nonsense. We were at a trans rights protest in London a few months ago (with my friend the trans lady) since when did anyone leave the house wearing their “sex dungeon” outfit? Apparently this is what some trans women think is appropriate day wear (a small percentage but they were very noticeable!) and then there was a group of lesbians who were protesting against trans people having the same rights as them - the world has gone mad! Live and let love - but not in public 🤗 That last line sounds a bit like 'do what you want as long as I don't have to see it'. You seem a reasonable kind of guy in your other posts so giving the benefit of the doubt here, but some people do have to be careful with the words they use. If they have kids or younger generation amongst them, then even more so. As long as they're not breaking the law, I don't have an issue with what they do in public. Live and let live. When I was young and ignorant, of which I'm certainly not the former and hopefully not the latter any longer, I used to view trans people through a lens that had been created by the environment I grew up in. Unacceptable words for people of different background or sexuality were often used in our household. Only through growing up and learning the reality people have had to suffer educated me in changing the way I think. I wouldn't call my guardians bad people, but they are in their 80s now and just weren't educated as we are today. It was completely acceptable in those days. It certainly doesn't make it right. Some people may be in the boat I was, their thinking is clouded by their upbringing, but, for me, the current anti-trans rhetoric is the kind of discrimination that we saw back in the 60s to the 80s for other minority groups. Now we have social media it's completely amplified again. Whilst there are plenty of people educating for the better using the platforms, there seem significantly more who just want to spread hate. That said, if you're in no way affected and it's not part of your every day life, but you're allowing it to darken it, then you're (the collective you not you specifically) probably the one with some sort of problem. Edited August 14, 2023 by jackwhite 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2bees Posted August 15, 2023 Share Posted August 15, 2023 Live and let love, was something I saw on a banner that resonated with me and was a nice sentiment. Strange that you would think otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted August 15, 2023 Share Posted August 15, 2023 (edited) 21 hours ago, jackwhite said: Some people may be in the boat I was, their thinking is clouded by their upbringing, but, for me, the current anti-trans rhetoric is the kind of discrimination that we saw back in the 60s to the 80s for other minority groups. Now we have social media it's completely amplified again. Whilst there are plenty of people educating for the better using the platforms, there seem significantly more who just want to spread hate. I’m not sure that’s true. Positive messages on social media tend to receive less attention than the negative ones, because they stand out more. ( the negative ones, that is) I think we need to look at society as a whole rather than concentrating on the social media side of things. And society as a whole has undoubtedly become more tolerant over the decades. Edited August 15, 2023 by The Voice of Reason addition to second para following jack white’s subsequent posting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted August 15, 2023 Share Posted August 15, 2023 18 hours ago, jackwhite said: That last line sounds a bit like 'do what you want as long as I don't have to see it'. You seem a reasonable kind of guy in your other posts so giving the benefit of the doubt here, but some people do have to be careful with the words they use. If they have kids or younger generation amongst them, then even more so. As long as they're not breaking the law, I don't have an issue with what they do in public. Live and let live. When I was young and ignorant, of which I'm certainly not the former and hopefully not the latter any longer, I used to view trans people through a lens that had been created by the environment I grew up in. Unacceptable words for people of different background or sexuality were often used in our household. Only through growing up and learning the reality people have had to suffer educated me in changing the way I think. I wouldn't call my guardians bad people, but they are in their 80s now and just weren't educated as we are today. It was completely acceptable in those days. It certainly doesn't make it right. Some people may be in the boat I was, their thinking is clouded by their upbringing, but, for me, the current anti-trans rhetoric is the kind of discrimination that we saw back in the 60s to the 80s for other minority groups. Now we have social media it's completely amplified again. Whilst there are plenty of people educating for the better using the platforms, there seem significantly more who just want to spread hate. I also think we need to be clearer about what defines hate and “ anti trans rhetoric “ I am one who believes everyone has the right to act, dress and behave ( without hurting others ) as they wish, including trans people. I don’t however, together with most, believe that sex and gender are different things. For expressing this opinion I have received some really quite offensive remarks on MF. I wouldn’t say they pass the threshold of being hateful. But if I was of a thinner skin I could have found them quite hurtful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wright Posted August 15, 2023 Share Posted August 15, 2023 1 hour ago, The Voice of Reason said: together with most I think you'd be surprised at out out of touch with both "Reason" and the "majority you are on this. You don't, and shouldn't, claim to speak for "most". Its just not true. There may be two causes, 1. a generational thing, you're older and have fixed views and aren't willing to countenance that things have changed on this, over your lifetime 2. You're genuinely transphobic, either of trans itself or as a political deflection tool Biologically chromosomally determined sex is not the same as gender. Virtually everyone, except a very few diehards accept that. It should be non controversial. Ill give you the benefit of the doubt and say you fall in 1. But some of the things you come out with on the topic are, unintentionally in that case, deeply transphobic and offensive. And if you said them about members of the black or gay community would be criminal offenses as well as causing the deepest offence. Maybe that is the problem, you have thick skin and expect everyone else to be the same> 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Voice of Reason Posted August 15, 2023 Share Posted August 15, 2023 27 minutes ago, John Wright said: I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and say you fall in 1. But some of the things you come out with on the topic are, unintentionally in that case, deeply transphobic and offensive. And if you said them about members of the black or gay community would be criminal offenses as well as causing the deepest offence. Like what? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillowWeed Posted August 15, 2023 Share Posted August 15, 2023 26 minutes ago, John Wright said: You don't, and shouldn't, claim to speak for "most". Its just not true. 27 minutes ago, John Wright said: Virtually everyone, except a very few diehards accept that. It should be non controversial. id be interested to see an actual poll on this, on the one hand you say Voice of Reason is wrong to state most people hold his view, however 3-4 lines later you make a claim that most share your particular view on the trans/sex/gender ambiguity. not saying either of you is right or wrong, but i would say @John Wright knowing who you are (by reputaion and not personally) and what you do for a living that you of all people would be more careful of calling someone out on a sweeping statement only to follow up with a sweeping statement of your own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted August 15, 2023 Share Posted August 15, 2023 And somewhat unsurprisingly... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeliX Posted August 15, 2023 Share Posted August 15, 2023 And from a recent Gov consultation... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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