Josem exposes QE2 drag queen photos

[HeliX]

1 minute ago, The Voice of Reason said:

No benefit or disadvantage to anyone. It’s just biology. ( I know you and Glad will say not)

I am equally perplexed as to why you are particularly bothered by this view. It’s not an attack on trans people  ( with whom I have no axe to grind), despite what any particular mischief maker might say.

 

Well, the same way I'd be bothered if someone told me the sky was purple. Gender is not determined by biology. Gender is a social construct. As previously mentioned, lots of cultures have had third genders for millenia - how is that possible if Gender is anything but a social construct? What makes them wrong (in your view) and us right?

[Gladys]

13 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

No benefit or disadvantage to anyone. It’s just biology. ( I know you and Glad will say not)

I am equally perplexed as to why you are particularly bothered by this view. It’s not an attack on trans people  ( with whom I have no axe to grind), despite what any particular mischief maker might say.

 

Gender is not biology.  Just look at how social constructs start with the type of toys given to either boys or girls.  They reinforce a societal expectation of what attributes and characteristics each will have

  But there are many instances where a girl will prefer to play with trains, climb trees etc and where a boy would rather play house with dolls. That is not to say in either case it displays that a gender in the wrong body  but it shows how much is inculcated by society rather than biology. 

[John Wright]

24 minutes ago, The Voice of Reason said:

It’s just biology.

It really isn’t. And there’s science and examples to prove it.

Take Caster Semenya.

Genetically an XY chromosome male, who, because of chromosomal abnormalities of genes on other chromosomes , hormonal and endocrinal, had development of male external genitalia and other primary sexual characteristics suppressed during in utero development.

Assigned female at birth, that’s apparently how her genitals present, birth registered as female. Brought up as female. Considered by herself and family and the rest of the world as female.

Biologically/genetically male but with a different gender.

How would you describe her? 

And does it make any difference if these things occur antenatally or postnatally with medical intervention of hormones, hormone suppressors or surgery.

Which loos do you, and Josem for that matter, say she should use?

What psychological and psychiatric damage would be caused by making her identify as a gender that corresponds to her biological sex?

Its no different by analogy.

[Harry Lamb]

11 minutes ago, John Wright said:

It really isn’t. And there’s science and examples to prove it.

Take Caster Semenya.

Genetically an XY chromosome male, who, because of chromosomal abnormalities of genes on other chromosomes , hormonal and endocrinal, had development of male external genitalia and other primary sexual characteristics suppressed during in utero development.

Assigned female at birth, that’s apparently how her genitals present, birth registered as female. Brought up as female. Considered by herself and family and the rest of the world as female.

Biologically/genetically male but with a different gender.

How would you describe her? 

And does it make any difference if these things occur antenatally or postnatally with medical intervention of hormones, hormone suppressors or surgery.

Which loos do you, and Josem for that matter, say she should use?

What psychological and psychiatric damage would be caused by making her identify as a gender that corresponds to her biological sex?

Its no different by analogy.

Josem should be using a dunny, back where he came from.

[The Voice of Reason]

32 minutes ago, John Wright said:

Which loos do you, and Josem for that matter, say she should use?

I wouldn’t presume to dictate the toilet facilities she/he/they should use.

From what you’ve explained of her/his physical attributes using a traditional male urinal might prove problematic, so a cubicle ( male, female whatever) would be more suitable.

Its not really a conundrum that keeps me awake at night.

ETA What’s Casters current toilet arrangement?

If that’s not been problematic, then I would perhaps suggest they stick with that.

Edited August 15, 2023 by The Voice of Reason
Addition of last para

[The Voice of Reason]

21 minutes ago, Gladys said:

Gender is not biology.  Just look at how social constructs start with the type of toys given to either boys or girls.  They reinforce a societal expectation of what attributes and characteristics each will have

  But there are many instances where a girl will prefer to play with trains, climb trees etc and where a boy would rather play house with dolls. That is not to say in either case it displays that a gender in the wrong body  but it shows how much is inculcated by society rather than biology. 

I agree with all of that bar the first sentence. 
So we are not too far apart in all this after all.

[Gladys]

1 minute ago, The Voice of Reason said:

I agree with all of that bar the first sentence. 
So we are not too far apart in all this after all.

But bringing a boy up as a girl does not change the biological sex, but it changes or influences the gender.  See John's post above. 

[The Voice of Reason]

15 minutes ago, Gladys said:

But bringing a boy up as a girl does not change the biological sex, but it changes or influences the gender.  See John's post above. 

How do you “ bring a boy up as a girl”.?

Is it as simple as buying him dolls for Christmas? Putting him in skirts etc?

Then no, he is still a boy both in sex and gender.

 

 

Edited August 15, 2023 by The Voice of Reason
Expansion of second para

[Josem]

2 hours ago, John Wright said:

Of course, there’s always a place for debate on laws, rules and social issues. However that debate won’t necessarily come up with the correct answer.

There isn't a "correct" answer to most political issues. These are issues of judgment and values.

2 hours ago, John Wright said:

As for the teachers, there’s zero evidence, apart from that invented by Tufton Street type think tanks, MTPA, the Libertarian Right, the religious right/fundamentalists of anyone promoting any political views to undermine women or anyone else.

The documents published at Ballakermeen High School are available online for all to see: https://michaeljosem.com/ballakermeen-high-school-facing-national-criticism-for-promoting-extreme-attack-on-womens-rights/

You don't need to believe me - you can just read the documents for yourself. They're there! You can believe your own eyes when you read them. You can view the evidence for yourself - I'm happy to publish such evidence, even though the legacy media outlets in the Isle of Man refuse to.

Saying that gender self-identification is a "major step forward" is a denial of the right of women to have safe spaces for their own protection. It's an extreme view promoted in our schools. It is an extreme view which has been rejected by Labour and Conservatives across. It's an extreme view which has long been opposed by women's rights advocates.

2 hours ago, John Wright said:

As for gender reassignment surgery, publicly funded, if it reduces the mental health treatment bill picked by society by allowing people to achieve the gender they are, when it’s not aligned to their chromosomal sex, and removes the mental and emotional consequences of being one gender trapped in the body of another, I’m not sure there can be any objection.

The first "if" there is doing an awful lot of work - especially when you are asserting that some people are "trapped" in a wrong body. I reject that idea entirely. I simply do not think that anyone's bodies are wrong. If you want to make a subjective determination and hold the opinion that some people's bodies are wrong, then I guess you're welcome to hold that opinion, but you don't get to make that offensive assertion as a claim of fact.

[Declan]

6 minutes ago, Josem said:

The documents published at Ballakermeen High School are available online for all to see: https://michaeljosem.com/ballakermeen-high-school-facing-national-criticism-for-promoting-extreme-attack-on-womens-rights/

You don't need to believe me - you can just read the documents for yourself. They're there! You can believe your own eyes when you read them. You can view the evidence for yourself - I'm happy to publish such evidence, even though the legacy media outlets in the Isle of Man refuse to.

Saying that gender self-identification is a "major step forward" is a denial of the right of women to have safe spaces for their own protection. It's an extreme view promoted in our schools. It is an extreme view which has been rejected by Labour and Conservatives across. It's an extreme view which has long been opposed by women's rights advocates.

 

You're the one politicising that issue. It's you labeling it as an attack on women's rights and extremist. 

The reality will be different. 

[John Wright]

@Josem

you reinforce the points I make.

It’s you that’s the extremist. Jut because you say something is an extreme attack on women’s rights, or a denial of women’s rights doesn’t make it so. Gender self identification is not an attack on the rights of anyone. It’s just you trying sensationalist trolling.

The first “if” is not stretching anything. I note you refuse to accept that someone can be trapped in the wrong body. There’s lots of research that supports that they can and it’s the basis for the current medical model. It’s not for me to determine. Under the medicalised model it’s for the psychiatrists and psychologists. In the self determination model it’s the person.

As I’ve said, it’s not possible to discuss this in a calm sensible manner because of the provocative and inflammatory views you espouse. And they’re deliberately held and vocalised for the reasons I set out above.

[John Wright]

1 hour ago, The Voice of Reason said:

I wouldn’t presume to dictate the toilet facilities she/he/they should use.

From what you’ve explained of her/his physical attributes using a traditional male urinal might prove problematic, so a cubicle ( male, female whatever) would be more suitable.

Its not really a conundrum that keeps me awake at night.

ETA What’s Casters current toilet arrangement?

If that’s not been problematic, then I would perhaps suggest they stick with that.

You’re avoiding.

Is CS biologically male or female?. What is the gender of CS? Are they the same, or different? And how do you justify your responses, whatever they may be?

[Josem]

3 hours ago, jackwhite said:

I would rather focus on the laws as they are. Not what they might be.

Well, staff in our schools are teaching students that the laws should be changed, so that people can simply determine their own gender. This creates big risks to women across our community, who are the most likely people to be the victim of gender-based violence. If you're going to put such ideas into our schools, at the very least, they should be presented in a fair and balanced manner.

These foreign culture wars should not be imported into our schools under the guise of woke political correctness. This woke political correctness is the idea that reality and truth should be changed to fit the dominant political narrative. Woke political correctness is a fundamentally bad way of looking at the world: people's ideas should change to fit the truth. The truth should not be changed to fit people's ideas - and we should not employ teachers who try to subvert truth in their teaching of children. School teachers should teach truth, not political narratives and political indoctrination.

[John Wright]

1 minute ago, Josem said:

This creates big risks to women

That’s just the rhetoric of the religious right, libertarians, the far right, TERF’s and MTPA. There is no empirical proof. 

 

3 minutes ago, Josem said:

foreign culture wars

There are no culture wars, foreign or otherwise, on this apart from the delusions you, and your ilk, try and sell as reality for your own warped political and economic ends.

 

5 minutes ago, Josem said:

woke political correctness

 Woke is empathy, caring, inclusion, respecting others proportionally, It’s a badge of honour when compared with its opposite of hate, division, marginalisation, that your philosophy promotes.

 

7 minutes ago, Josem said:

School teachers should teach truth, not political narratives and political indoctrination.

On that we agree. It’s just that you and I view the truth as being very different. And it’s you who pushes political narratives and indoctrination that is abhorrent.

[Sheldon]

5 minutes ago, Josem said:

foreign culture wars

Sorry, what?

John's first "if" above is indeed doing some heavy lifting. In these increasingly straitened times the opportunity cost of healthcare provision is under the microscope more than ever. (I seem to recall @wrighty touching on QALY during Covid.) In this instance though I don't think there's sufficient data yet to make a quantitative case one way or the other.