Crogga

[A fool and his money.....]

5 hours ago, Happier diner said:

 

The key thing being, you have to complete all the requirements of the application. Something that the rally organiser actual states, in a press release, that they didn't do. Make your own mind up if that makes then stupid or not.

If it's anything like a couple of other government departments I've had to deal with recently, those requirements will be;

1) Very costly.

2) Very, very time consuming.

3) Completely pointless (I'm not talking just a little bit frustrating here, but completely and utterly pointless).

4) Poorly thought out and badly written.

5) Completely irrelevant to the application.

6) Duplicated several times throughout the application.

And once complete, will be queried by the relevant department one by one.

The point being that if you pile up these arbitrary hurdles in front of an applicant, you can use any of the many pointless requirements to turn down anyone you don't like, whilst simultaneously using common sense in assessing the application of someone you do.

This isn't the rally organisers first rodeo, and they are all volunteers remember. Where's the need to regulate them out of existence?

 

[Happier diner]

7 minutes ago, A fool and his money..... said:

If it's anything like a couple of other government departments I've had to deal with recently, those requirements will be;

1) Very costly.

2) Very, very time consuming.

3) Completely pointless (I'm not talking just a little bit frustrating here, but completely and utterly pointless).

4) Poorly thought out and badly written.

5) Completely irrelevant to the application.

6) Duplicated several times throughout the application.

And once complete, will be queried by the relevant department one by one.

The point being that if you pile up these arbitrary hurdles in front of an applicant, you can use any of the many pointless requirements to turn down anyone you don't like, whilst simultaneously using common sense in assessing the application of someone you do.

This isn't the rally organisers first rodeo, and they are all volunteers remember. Where's the need to regulate them out of existence?

 

FFS. It's not that difficult. The requirements are clear. No different to if you were in greater Manchester. 

If you rely on volunteers that cannot follow a simple process, give in. Do you really think we should allow people access to closed roads with no safety plan for those who are, and those who are not involved with such event. Give them free reign to do anything. Think about what you are saying. 

[A fool and his money.....]

2 hours ago, Happier diner said:

FFS. It's not that difficult. The requirements are clear. No different to if you were in greater Manchester. 

If you rely on volunteers that cannot follow a simple process, give in. Do you really think we should allow people access to closed roads with no safety plan for those who are, and those who are not involved with such event. Give them free reign to do anything. Think about what you are saying. 

Do they have much road racing in Greater Manchester?

Is it a simple process? The two dealings I've had with government lately could have been very straightforward, they needn't have been otherwise, but I can assure you they were (needlessly) far from simple, in fact I'd go as far as to say they were very complicated.

Who says they don't have a safety plan? They've been running the event for donkeys years, they probably know how to run it safely a lot better than some ass covering civil servants from Greater Manchester.

Nobody mentioned giving them free reign to do anything, just to apply a tiny bit of common sense and not put needless hurdles in their way.

[Happier diner]

8 hours ago, A fool and his money..... said:

Do they have much road racing in Greater Manchester?

Is it a simple process? The two dealings I've had with government lately could have been very straightforward, they needn't have been otherwise, but I can assure you they were (needlessly) far from simple, in fact I'd go as far as to say they were very complicated.

Who says they don't have a safety plan? They've been running the event for donkeys years, they probably know how to run it safely a lot better than some ass covering civil servants from Greater Manchester.

Nobody mentioned giving them free reign to do anything, just to apply a tiny bit of common sense and not put needless hurdles in their way.

What needless hurdles were put in their way?

You try getting a road closed in Manchester for a rally. You would have no chance whatsoever. Being pedantic I know. It's not road racing. 

[A fool and his money.....]

3 hours ago, Happier diner said:

What needless hurdles were put in their way?

You try getting a road closed in Manchester for a rally. You would have no chance whatsoever. Being pedantic I know. It's not road racing. 

Why would closing a road in Manchester have anything to do with it? The UK is one of the most overregulated countries in the world! In fact that's the very reason we emerged as a Motorsport island over 100 years ago, and Motorsport has propped up our tourist industry ever since.

I have no idea what needless hurdles were put in their way, but if my recent experiences of government are anything to go by, they'll have been many in number, time consuming, costly and have absolutely no effect on the quality of the rally or its safety.

[Happier diner]

1 hour ago, A fool and his money..... said:

Why would closing a road in Manchester have anything to do with it? The UK is one of the most overregulated countries in the world! In fact that's the very reason we emerged as a Motorsport island over 100 years ago, and Motorsport has propped up our tourist industry ever since.

I have no idea what needless hurdles were put in their way, but if my recent experiences of government are anything to go by, they'll have been many in number, time consuming, costly and have absolutely no effect on the quality of the rally or its safety.

Needless hurdles? 

Traffic management plan and safety plan/risk assessment. 🤔🤔

[A fool and his money.....]

6 minutes ago, Happier diner said:

Needless hurdles? 

Traffic management plan and safety plan/risk assessment. 🤔🤔

Is that even what was missing? I doubt it.

[Happier diner]

1 hour ago, A fool and his money..... said:

Is that even what was missing? I doubt it.

Check the very first post in the thread. 

[Happier diner]

1 hour ago, A fool and his money..... said:

Is that even what was missing? I doubt it.

I'll save you the job. Highlighted text. There is an excuse but if you read the application form there is no acceptance of the proposed route. How could the DOI accept the proposed route without a traffic management plan? 

I admit I was incorrect about the risk assessment. 

URGENT NEWS FROM MANX AUTOSPORT

Saturday 6 July 2024

Chris Kelly Memorial Rally will not run in 2024

The Directors of Manx Autosport have to announce that the Club has not gained consent from the Department of Infrastructure to run the Chris Kelly Memorial Rally in September 2024.

The application was submitted on 18 October 2023 and the Club received a reply in early March 2024 after it had requested an update on the submission. The Department gave the Club three weeks to re-submit all the information required to run the rally and in the Department’s opinion it was incomplete and not acceptable. The information contained in the application included an Event Safety Plan, an Event Risk Assessment, an overall stage plan and the application form.

The Club did not submit a Traffic Management Plan and Stage Safety Plan as it had not received an acceptance for the proposed route.

The Club followed the protocol that it has used several times with the exception that it started the application many months earlier following a request to do so from the Department of Infrastructure.

On 30 March 2024 the Club re-submitted its amended plans to the Department but this was also rejected, on 14 May 2024, for the same reasons.

At no point have the Directors and team at Manx Autosport been made aware of what in, particular, the Department was unhappy with, but the Club’s application emphasised that all its documents were live and could and would be improved upon or extended as and when required.

Since the announcement the Department has indicated that it would consider replying to the application within a couple of weeks. It is worth remembering that the events are put together by volunteers from both on the island and the UK.

In conclusion, Manx Autosport is disappointed that so many volunteers, competitors and Isle of Man businesses will feel let down by this decision.

Issued by Paul Lawrence (07778 547918) on behalf of Manx Auto Sport.

For more details, please visit the website at: manxautosport.org or e-mail: manxautosport@gmail.com

Awesome Photos provided by Lucas Croydon Photography”

[Utah 01]

19 minutes ago, Happier diner said:

Event Risk Assessment

There's risk - what else do you want know?  How do we mitigate against it?  Don't do it.  This is the nanny-state's, risk averse wet-dream answer to everything because only they are capable of producing the necessary copious pages of written garbage that only they could dream up that, in reality, says and achieves nothing.

[ian rush]

34 minutes ago, Utah 01 said:

There's risk - what else do you want know?  How do we mitigate against it?  Don't do it.  This is the nanny-state's, risk averse wet-dream answer to everything because only they are capable of producing the necessary copious pages of written garbage that only they could dream up that, in reality, says and achieves nothing.

Have you read the 26th Milestone inquest or any other death at work inquests? Risk assessments are about protecting people with measures appropriate to the risk and not being a fuckwit. And yes, you do sometimes have to write it down to show you’re not a fuckwit boss, organizer etc or because your staff are fuckwits. 

[A fool and his money.....]

1 hour ago, Happier diner said:

Check the very first post in the thread. 

So they hadn't submitted them because they had not received an acceptance for the proposed route.

Classic government efficiency.

How can you submit a traffic management plan (whatever the fuck that is) or a safety plan if you don't know which roads you're allowed to use?

I tell you, just try dealing with a government department, for almost anything. Don't expect any logic or common sense though and expect some of the hoops they want you to jump through to be impossible, as would appear to be the case here.

[A fool and his money.....]

10 minutes ago, ian rush said:

Have you read the 26th Milestone inquest or any other death at work inquests? Risk assessments are about protecting people with measures appropriate to the risk and not being a fuckwit. And yes, you do sometimes have to write it down to show you’re not a fuckwit boss, organizer etc or because your staff are fuckwits. 

You then have to submit it to another fuckwit who has probably never done what you want to do, to see if their book says you're going to do it safely.

[Gladys]

Perhaps what is needed is a two stage process.  Get approval in principle to the routes, if approved submit a safety plan for tonal approval. 

[Happier diner]

2 hours ago, A fool and his money..... said:

So they hadn't submitted them because they had not received an acceptance for the proposed route.

Classic government efficiency.

How can you submit a traffic management plan (whatever the fuck that is) or a safety plan if you don't know which roads you're allowed to use?

I tell you, just try dealing with a government department, for almost anything. Don't expect any logic or common sense though and expect some of the hoops they want you to jump through to be impossible, as would appear to be the case here.

There is no acceptance phase. That's the organiser putting the risk onto the government. The organiser of the road closure has all the risk. They have to assess the risks and how the traffic is going to be managed. 

1 hour ago, Gladys said:

Perhaps what is needed is a two stage process.  Get approval in principle to the routes, if approved submit a safety plan for tonal approval. 

Absolutely not. For the reason given above. Select the route you want. Do all the assessments. Submit the application. Yes, once the application is in its reasonable to expect the DOI to comment and allow an adjustment rather a bland rejection. In my experience they will do this.