Minister of Treasury - Dr Spend - waffle, spin, deflect

[woolley]

3 hours ago, finlo said:

A nice little piggy bank about to get raided!

They would have to change the law and it will be resisted I am sure.

[finlo]

Just now, woolley said:

They would have to change the law and it will be resisted I am sure.

Well they've already dipped into it the COVID payouts!

[woolley]

7 minutes ago, finlo said:

Well they've already dipped into it the COVID payouts!

Yes, and years ago for the hospital, but if it becomes a regular revenue source there will be fireworks.

[Non-Believer]

7 hours ago, woolley said:

They would have to change the law and it will be resisted I am sure.

I seem to remember a local politician posting on here that all options in that respect are open. "Ring-fencing" is not as permanent as some might like to think.

[woolley]

7 hours ago, Non-Believer said:

I seem to remember a local politician posting on here that all options in that respect are open. "Ring-fencing" is not as permanent as some might like to think.

Nothing is permanent if you change the law governing it, but this particular change would be a brave decision for any politician backing it.

[Non-Believer]

47 minutes ago, woolley said:

Nothing is permanent if you change the law governing it, but this particular change would be a brave decision for any politician backing it.

I think it depends on how desperate the need for money.

When you've got liabilities like a £400M power station debt, a £500M+ pa PS wage bill (and growing), a £40M pa pensions legacy gap and you're also just in for a £100M ferry Terminal (to name just the commonly discussed ones), then a big pile of money with a few covenants around it can start looking mighty attractive, particularly when some of those liabilities involve a large voter base.

[woolley]

3 minutes ago, Non-Believer said:

I think it depends on how desperate the need for money.

When you've got liabilities like a £400M power station debt, a £500M+ pa PS wage bill (and growing), a £40M pa pensions legacy gap and you're also just in for a £100M ferry Terminal (to name just the commonly discussed ones), then a big pile of money with a few covenants around it can start looking mighty attractive, particularly when some of those liabilities involve a large voter base.

Are you advocating this as a solution then? Or at least a stopgap?

[Non-Believer]

1 hour ago, woolley said:

Are you advocating this as a solution then? Or at least a stopgap?

I'd rather it was neither and that governance had been such that the situation had not arisen.

However, that's a little late now and short of Trevor Hemmings bequeathing IoMG his full billion in his will, it's difficult to see how it's not going to happen. My own opinion is that once the precedent has been set, the floodgates will open, as long as the solution fixes things up in time for the next election or retirement, that's as far as it goes for these people. 

[Numbnuts]

Raiding the NI fund is just that a raid. Till the powers that be get a grip of budgets and expenditure nothings going to change apart from having lot less in the reserves. Ohh look , Cannan was a treasury minister in previous years. What did he do to address anything , Jack Shit. Something seriously wrong with system over here as there doesn’t seem to be any checks or balances on anything. Till it all goes wrong then it all goes quiet..Prom anyone. Liverpool landing stage , I could go on. Ohhh wait , that ill fated power station that Proffitt  got away with a massive wrongdoing. 
we really are in a mess and the writing is on the wall when the next election comes round and you see how many jump ship . 

[Non-Believer]

4 hours ago, Numbnuts said:

Ohh look , Cannan was a treasury minister in previous years. What did he do to address anything..

Alf Cannan promised all sorts of fiscal revolution when he was TM, I still have a copy of an Indy reporting on his edicts from one of his Budgets about ripping up the Departmental credit cards and introducing tighter controls.

I will leave others to make their own judgements on exactly what was achieved.

[GreyWolf]

Alfs achieved zilch, nowt, nothing, beggar all.

[Albert Tatlock]

1 minute ago, GreyWolf said:

Alfs achieved zilch, nowt, nothing, beggar all.

Indeed - zilch growth in reserves, most of us have nowt left at the end of the month, nothing is left in the govt's pension pot so the taxpayer is having to fund it all - and we have a lot more beggars! A heck of an achievement list 😃

[Roger Mexico]

On 6/24/2023 at 4:39 PM, Ringy Rose said:

Focusing on the DfE is fiddling with deckchairs though. The entire DfE wage bill, including everything they do (ship registry, aircraft registry, the agencies, work permits, etc), is about £8m. Not to be sniffed at, although the DfE does make nearly all of that back in revenue, mostly from the registries. DfE’s net deficit is about £40,000. But in context, the nursing wage bill is about £52m, the teaching wage bill is about £40m.

You have to realise that DfE being 'self-financing' is an accounting trick though.  The only bit of it that makes the money is the only non-enterprising bit - the Central Registry, which charges for property and company registration etc.  This made around £15 million in 2022-23 (income £17 m, costs £2 m) and that profit is what pays for the rest of DfE - rather than going into the general revenue to pay for nurses, teachers and so on.

The Aircraft and the Ship Registry only usually do slightly better than break even over the years (Ship £266K loss; Aircraft £366K profit  in latest figures).  The justification is more that the business they bring also feeds into the economy.  All other areas are loss-making, subsidised by the Registry:  Motorsport £6.6 million, Enterprise Support £5.7 million, Tourism £2 million, about £5 million for management etc. 

(Despite claiming to be self-financing there's a 'probable' loss of £4.7 million.  I suspect special funds will be found from Treasury for some of those 'Support' categories so as to maintain the myth).

Staff costs are actually £11 million, which is probably an under-estimate because some employed as contractors may not be included.  Obviously some of that will be justified, but I suspect a lower percentage than most other Departments.

It's true that most IOMG costs are justified and we don't tax the well-off enough to pay for them.  It's a fantasy that enough savings can be made by cutting back on all these nebulous jobs and functions and layers of management.  But you can still save an awful lot and improve things for those who do carry out the essential, if less well-paid jobs.

[woolley]

2 hours ago, Roger Mexico said:

It's true that most IOMG costs are justified and we don't tax the well-off enough to pay for them.  It's a fantasy that enough savings can be made by cutting back on all these nebulous jobs and functions and layers of management.  But you can still save an awful lot and improve things for those who do carry out the essential, if less well-paid jobs.

I'm not sure it's a fantasy that enough savings can be made by cutting back on all these nebulous jobs and functions and layers of management, but I would certainly agree that it's a fantasy it will ever happen. It's impossible to answer the perennial question: What would you like government to stop doing? We simply don't know what most of the individuals are doing nor how much of it.

As for taxing the well off more, that's difficult when you're supposed to be running a tax haven. You have to avoid converting them from well off to cleared off. It's not a personal thing. I came here when I was skint because I love the place, and I'd still be here if the taxes were the same as the UK or wherever, but I know plenty who wouldn't.

[Barlow]

4 hours ago, Albert Tatlock said:

......... - and we have a lot more beggars! A heck of an achievement list 😃

Do we have beggars? I hope not. 

Any town and city in UK has a beggar more-or-less on every corner. A true blight on our society.