Report on Isle of Man Prison

[TheTeapot]

1 minute ago, Passing Time said:

Might I ask why you would object to prisoners working outside?

I wouldn't, I'm all for it. 

[PeachTea]

17 minutes ago, TheTeapot said:

 

Prison is not good, for anyone. We need one of course, people who commit serious violent crimes need a strong punishment, but we lock too many people up for too long for too little. And then don't give them enough help to ensure they don't end up there again.

The biggest problem when it comes to re-offending is the lack of support and opportunities once someone is released back into society. Offenders mostly dont have anywhere else to go bar a halfway home , employers wont take them on because they have a criminal record so end up looking for other ways to support themselves which more often that that is crime. Voila.. back inside again.

 

 

 

[peel sunset]

15 minutes ago, PeachTea said:

The biggest problem when it comes to re-offending is the lack of support and opportunities once someone is released back into society. Offenders mostly dont have anywhere else to go bar a halfway home , employers wont take them on because they have a criminal record so end up looking for other ways to support themselves which more often that that is crime. Voila.. back inside again.

 

 

 

RDR is a way of businesses testing the water with providing employment to a prisoner, the prisons staffing levels and lack of space on F Wing have ceased RDR for many months now.  Prisoners who have found work for their release and wish to do this on day release have been hampered. Risk assessments are not being done, responses to the businesses by Gary Thomas is not happening, the prisoners are dejected and bored which is not a good place to be when you are also locked up, mental health issues at Jurby are not managed.   

And yes they are prisoners and yes they have to be punished, but there is a duty of care that is not being met, many have the right to be considered for RDR (with requirements) and its not happening.  Staff numbers are in the gift of the Governor, it seems like the management wake up each day and are surprised they have inmates.

[WTF]

1 hour ago, Non-Believer said:

The reintroduction of capital punishment would help. Miscreant civil servants to the fore.

it certainly cuts down on repeat offenders

[thommo2010]

Community service should be utilised more but the issues with that are lack of probation workers to supervise them, the red tape and insurance etc and finally the offenders themselves can just say I have a bad back etc not turn up and then get their sentence changed to a fine. If I was in their position I would rather a fine than having to give up say 120 hours of my time painting or pulling weeds 

[Albert Tatlock]

6 minutes ago, thommo2010 said:

Community service should be utilised more but the issues with that are lack of probation workers to supervise them, the red tape and insurance etc and finally the offenders themselves can just say I have a bad back etc not turn up and then get their sentence changed to a fine. If I was in their position I would rather a fine than having to give up say 120 hours of my time painting or pulling weeds 

While there may be genuine health issues to consider and tailor for, then don't generally give them the option of paying a fine - either do the community service or spend 2 * the same time locked up.

There's not many of these guys and times can be scheduled - surely there are all kinds of retired coppers who could run this part time (and probably enjoy doing it - adding to the community again)? This option is a lot less expensive than renting temporary cabins and the extra staff required to look after them.

As for insurance, there is a lot of government owned land that needs tending. Keep things simple and the insurance costs down by maybe sticking to that.

[Non-Believer]

1 minute ago, Albert Tatlock said:

While there may be genuine health issues to consider and tailor for, then don't generally give them the option of paying a fine - either do the community service or spend 2 * the same time locked up.

There's not many of these guys and times can be scheduled - surely there are all kinds of retired coppers who could run this part time (and probably enjoy doing it - adding to the community again)? This option is a lot less expensive than renting temporary cabins and the extra staff required to look after them.

As for insurance, there is a lot of government owned land that needs tending. Keep things simple and the insurance costs down by maybe sticking to that.

I've seen "teams" out on community service in recent years doing a bit of weeding etc. Well, some were. The rest were just dicking around or standing smoking and doing as little as possible. The supervisors appeared to have little control or authority over them, unfortunately.

[peel sunset]

9 minutes ago, thommo2010 said:

Community service should be utilised more but the issues with that are lack of probation workers to supervise them, the red tape and insurance etc and finally the offenders themselves can just say I have a bad back etc not turn up and then get their sentence changed to a fine. If I was in their position I would rather a fine than having to give up say 120 hours of my time painting or pulling weeds 

Agreed, but not all offenders have manual labour as their skillset, many have digital skills which could be utilised by Charites or other agencies.  The head of the probation service is also the same man who is Governor of the prison staffing is in his gift. Arranging suitable community service roles should be on his list.

I feel that money spent on hiring the portacabins for the prison will solve a short term space issue, but they could of been bought outright and saved money in the long run, if there isn't a plan to reduce the prison population having them in situ for 12 months is not a long term solution.

The UK prisons are full and they wont accept prisoners from the IOM, why would they.  All transferees have to go via a Liverpool transfer facility in Walton which is at capacity, banking on a solution which the IOM have no control over is up there on the stupid scale 

[Albert Tatlock]

6 minutes ago, Non-Believer said:

I've seen "teams" out on community service in recent years doing a bit of weeding etc. Well, some were. The rest were just dicking around or standing smoking and doing as little as possible. The supervisors appeared to have little control or authority over them, unfortunately.

Each should have a daily write up - If they dick around they have to make up the time. Camera technology is cheap and admissible in court these days.

They'll soon stop dicking around if they appear back in court and their time doubles - or they go inside.

[peel sunset]

13 minutes ago, Non-Believer said:

I've seen "teams" out on community service in recent years doing a bit of weeding etc. Well, some were. The rest were just dicking around or standing smoking and doing as little as possible. The supervisors appeared to have little control or authority over them, unfortunately.

If its a team its more likely to be a prison work party, which should have prison staff managing them.  They do not have to do this, work party is a privilege but you have to be in F Wing and its too small to cope with the number of prisoners that wish to be up there. Its a loose loose situation. 

The portacabins will have some RDR and work party inmates in there but its still wont scratch the surface of the increasing prison population and high number of youngsters in that cohort.  Kids coming through our system that have been let down and know no better, the solution has to start earlier, we need less convictions that lead to prison.

[Albert Tatlock]

14 minutes ago, peel sunset said:

Agreed, but not all offenders have manual labour as their skillset, many have digital skills which could be utilised by Charites or other agencies.

Yes they could do that kind of thing remotely or from some designated office hot-desk space, but monitoring gets complex (unless they can be added to an existing monitored scheme, which, say, a long term prisoner is doing as part of rehabilitation and imminent release). 

However, if we want to keep costs (admin/insurance) and complexity down for now - just get the alternative working - they can tidy up the island - which is within most peoples capabilities. Imagine the insurance required in case one of them kicks off at a charity or some other office?

Though there is another argument against that - why should some be 'punished' sentenced to do what they like doing?

[Shake me up Judy]

Part of the problem was the withdrawal of early intervention policies for juvenile delinquents. They can get away with anything until they're 16 and after that it's often too late. They just laugh at the police and parental/school authority and no one can touch them. Not dealing with the problem plays to the liberal-progressive gallery and saves money in the short term. There's your answer.

Community work parties don't work anymore. It's not exactly Cool Hand Luke out there. The boys jump out of the mini-bus, find somewhere to lie down out of the wind, light up the spliffs, dick around, take the piss, or even scarper. The prison staff have little power to do anything and can't lay a finger on them or make them do any work. Their job and pension is on the line every time they're on shift. It's a farce and takes staff away from more meaningful roles inside the prison where they at least have some effective control. 

[Roger Mexico]

2 hours ago, TheTeapot said:

I'd massively improve the community service scheme.

But the trouble with that and similar schemes like RDR is that they are much more labour-intensive in terms of prison officers than simply banging people up.  We know that the Prison was already chronically short-staffed from last year's IMB Report and that this was affecting additional activities such as education and the monitoring of vulnerable prisoners.  Since that time the prison population has soared by over 40%.  I doubt the number of prison officers has gone up correspondingly or at all.  And of course once an institution in chronically understaffed you have more problems with staff retention, sickness and so on.

This is a problem entirely and recently created by decisions made by police and judiciary.

1 hour ago, peel sunset said:

Staff numbers are in the gift of the Governor, it seems like the management wake up each day and are surprised they have inmates.

Staff numbers certainly won't be in the gift of the Governor who will be working to a pre-set budget.  The spend for the Probation and Prison Service in 2022-23 was £9.3 million and this went up to an estimated  £10.1 million in 2023-24, presumably under the pressure of the increase in prisoner numbers.  The budget for 2024-25 is only £10.3 million, which doesn't even allow for inflation, never mind all the current extra costs.

Of course that's even without considering the difficulty of recruiting and training new staff in the current employment situation on the Island.

[Banker]

2 hours ago, thommo2010 said:

Community service should be utilised more but the issues with that are lack of probation workers to supervise them, the red tape and insurance etc and finally the offenders themselves can just say I have a bad back etc not turn up and then get their sentence changed to a fine. If I was in their position I would rather a fine than having to give up say 120 hours of my time painting or pulling weeds 

You may want to pay a fine but most of those sentenced are repeat offenders, don’t have any money as on benefits so they can’t pay any fine other than deductible from benefits over many years.

[Two-lane]

This is only vaguely relevant to overcrowded prisons - I did not find any information about population/prisoner ratios, but I did find this:

"The Penrose hypothesis,Reference Penrose1 first postulated over 80 years ago, states that an inverse relationship exists between psychiatric in-patient numbers and the prison population: when the in-patient population decreases the prison population will increase. "

Prison population is not solely (but no doubt mainly) due to people being "bad".