MUA water meters

[Gladys]

Pretty sure between water and sewerage charges I was paying a lot more when I lived in Surrey.  Long time ago, but when the Council Tax was added, it was quite an expense each month.

 

[Dirty Buggane]

As the constipated mathmatision said, "have you got a pencil so as to work this out"

[Gladys]

4 minutes ago, Dirty Buggane said:

As the constipated mathmatision said, "have you got a pencil so as to work this out"

Top tip - use the rubber end. 

[John Wright]

I got the figures wrong. Most recent bill.

Sumistro is the standing charge

then 4 pricing bands, showing number of cubic metres in each and and the price per 100 litres.

That bill is for 3 months with occupancy of

10 days, my nephew and his  6 university friends.

10 days, my cousin and new husband. 

36 days, me + 1

Total bill, including VAT on the standing charge was €752, and there were 162 people days. So, roughly €5 per person, per day. A bath or shower is about 70-80 litres.

 

[Happier diner]

2 hours ago, Gladys said:

Pretty sure between water and sewerage charges I was paying a lot more when I lived in Surrey.  Long time ago, but when the Council Tax was added, it was quite an expense each month.

 

In the IOM the water rate is a social tax. The bigger the property you have the more you pay (generally). It has nothing to do with consumption.

So, there are winners and losers. The poor pay a small amount and the wealthy pay a very large amount so long as they have wealth appropriate properties. 

Water is normally in abundance. 

This may change as water becomes more scarce.

I think that on average it's very cheap and cheaper than anywhere I have lived when I have worked away.

[John Wright]

44 minutes ago, Happier diner said:

In the IOM the water rate is a social tax.

Is a property tax a social tax? Social taxes are usually imposed on income to pay for pensions and benefits.

[Happier diner]

5 minutes ago, John Wright said:

Is a property tax a social tax? Social taxes are usually imposed on income to pay for pensions and benefits.

Yes that's true. Thats perhaps where having a large property does not necessarily mean you have a high income. You may have no income at all. 

I suppose the rational is that you don't have to keep a large property 

I should have more correctly said that it's 'like' or akin to a social tax. 

[John Wright]

11 minutes ago, Happier diner said:

Yes that's true. Thats perhaps where having a large property does not necessarily mean you have a high income. You may have no income at all. 

I suppose the rational is that you don't have to keep a large property 

I should have more correctly said that it's 'like' or akin to a social tax. 

It’s nothing like a social tax.

Water in UK and IoM is a property tax. It bears no relation to consumption, other than the possibility that a larger, more valuable, property ( with higher rates or council tax bill ) will probably be occupied by more people and use more water and produce more sewage.

[Happier diner]

40 minutes ago, John Wright said:

It’s nothing like a social tax.

Water in UK and IoM is a property tax. It bears no relation to consumption, other than the possibility that a larger, more valuable, property ( with higher rates or council tax bill ) will probably be occupied by more people and use more water and produce more sewage.

You seem to want an arguement.  Call it what you want. I'm just saying it's related to wealth and not consumption. 

Used to be the same in the UK until the 80's when metering became something that was applied to new properties. In most areas compulsorily. Also you could elect to have a meter voluntarily and pay on a by consumption basis. 

In the Isle of man you cannot elect to pay by consumption and you can only pay a proportion of your rateable value. If your rateable value is high you water rate is high. 

Those with properties that have low rateable values pay low water rate. If you are a 90year old widow living in a mansion and you have 1 sip of water per day you pay significantly more than a family of 10 with a hot tub in anagh coer.

[John Wright]

31 minutes ago, Happier diner said:

You seem to want an arguement.  Call it what you want. I'm just saying it's related to wealth and not consumption. 

Used to be the same in the UK until the 80's when metering became something that was applied to new properties. In most areas compulsorily. Also you could elect to have a meter voluntarily and pay on a by consumption basis. 

In the Isle of man you cannot elect to pay by consumption and you can only pay a proportion of your rateable value. If your rateable value is high you water rate is high. 

Those with properties that have low rateable values pay low water rate. If you are a 90year old widow living in a mansion and you have 1 sip of water per day you pay significantly more than a family of 10 with a hot tub in anagh coer.

No. I’m not wanting an argument. I’m pointing out that you’re wrong. Water charges based on rateable value ( in both England and IoM ) are based on a notional rental value ( in the case of the IoM based on 1971 rental values and in England frozen at the level immediately before rates were abolished ). They have an incidental relationship to property values, but not wealth. Yes, bigger properties have higher rateable values, but, as in 1971 IoM rural properties were less desirable, large country properties often have a lower rateable value than a terraced property in Douglas.

In England ( I’m avoiding using UK as it’s different in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland )water suppliers introduced metres in all new properties from 1990 and some have designated supply areas where they are slowly rolling out compulsory metering. In any event you can demand installation of a meter. 

Scotland you can ask to be metered. Wales the same. Northern Ireland all new houses have meters fitted, since 2007, but none have ever been read, and billing is based on old rateable values.

[Fred the shred]

Years ago Alfie was chair or something important in the water board and someone asked on Talking Heads would they consider metering his reply was it would be too expensive to install meters.

[Happier diner]

1 hour ago, John Wright said:

No. I’m not wanting an argument. I’m pointing out that you’re wrong. Water charges based on rateable value ( in both England and IoM ) are based on a notional rental value ( in the case of the IoM based on 1971 rental values and in England frozen at the level immediately before rates were abolished ). They have an incidental relationship to property values, but not wealth. Yes, bigger properties have higher rateable values, but, as in 1971 IoM rural properties were less desirable, large country properties often have a lower rateable value than a terraced property in Douglas.

In England ( I’m avoiding using UK as it’s different in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland )water suppliers introduced metres in all new properties from 1990 and some have designated supply areas where they are slowly rolling out compulsory metering. In any event you can demand installation of a meter. 

Scotland you can ask to be metered. Wales the same. Northern Ireland all new houses have meters fitted, since 2007, but none have ever been read, and billing is based on old rateable values.

I'm not sure you are quite right on a few points but I generally agree. 

I think you can request a meter but not demand. Small technical difference. The water company has to do it if its reasonably practicable 

[paswt]

4 hours ago, John Wright said:

It’s nothing like a social tax.

Water in UK and IoM is a property tax. It bears no relation to consumption, other than the possibility that a larger, more valuable, property ( with higher rates or council tax bill ) will probably be occupied by more people and use more water and produce more sewage.

I could point you to a property , occupied by a retired couple, comprising  5 bedrooms 9 (all en suite) with   a 2 bed ( en suite) flat on the lower ground floor..

just saying , hope this helps

[Jarndyce]

2 hours ago, Fred the shred said:

Years ago Alfie was chair or something important in the water board and someone asked Talking Heads would they consider metering his reply was it would be too expensive to install meters.

Same as it ever was...same as it ever was...

[John Wright]

1 hour ago, paswt said:

I could point you to a property , occupied by a retired couple, comprising  5 bedrooms 9 (all en suite) with   a 2 bed ( en suite) flat on the lower ground floor..

just saying , hope this helps

And I can point to two bedroom apartments and cottages that have six people living in them.

I was just pointing out the historic rationale and justification.

I don’t agree with rates as a basis for water billing, or local taxation. All in favour of volume charging, with ( means tested ) social tariffs for those with young families, special needs, older people.. Not sure I subscribe to the Spanish tariff type of charging however.