MUA water meters

[Happier diner]

1 hour ago, Roger Mexico said:

Water meters are always going to be revenue-raising unless they replace an even more expensive way of assessing and collecting charges.  Simply because the meters and their fitting, maintenance, monitoring, administering, checking, upgrading and replacement will cost money that otherwise wouldn't be spent and will have to be reclaimed from customers.  Basing charges on a rates system already used for other things is about the cheapest option you can get.

The main reason for fitting such meters ought to be for reducing usage.  But that simply isn't a problem here - even long hot summers only require minor measures, such as hosepipe bans.  Most global warming predictions imply an increase in rainfall for the Island.  Climate change mitigation (such as restoring peat bogs and forest) would also help with water conservation over time.

The only reasons for this proposal are civil service empire building and an inability to do anything except what the current fashion is in England.

Normally for a voluntary meter, the customer pays for the installation and the meter. No one with any sense would fit a non smart meter. 

If it were compulsory then yes, 'we' would have to pay. Yes the money would have to come from somewhere. 

However a desalination plant or new reservoir would be a factor of 10 more expensive. 

[WTF]

5 minutes ago, Happier diner said:

How do you know that? There is no tariff.

if you're on a meter there is a tariff, that's the point of the meter.

[Gladys]

2 minutes ago, Happier diner said:

Normally for a voluntary meter, the customer pays for the installation and the meter. No one with any sense would fit a non smart meter. 

If it were compulsory then yes, 'we' would have to pay. Yes the money would have to come from somewhere. 

However a desalination plant or new reservoir would be a factor of 10 more expensive. 

Why would it be a choice between metering and  a desalination plant?

As others have said, we don’t have a major water problem, metering won't necessarily result in water savings (fixing the allegedly leaky system would though) and if the current system works why change it? 

Roger (I think) gave a great explanation as to how the cost is in the delivery infrastructure not the amount of water delivered through it. 

[Two-lane]

16 minutes ago, Gladys said:

(Unless you were being ironic.)

Me? Ironic?? Cynical??? Sarcastic????

[ADELE]

I cannot see us being short of water in the foreseeable future , when smart meters are still being fitted at snails pace I would not think venturing down any more expensive meter avenues is a viable option.   We are all paying more for our broadband with the last hike and now we are looking forward to another rise when the fibre becomes compulsory due to the cessation of wire connections.    Where will it all end ?   People have less disposable income with every passing day with increases in food etc I foresee a lot of restaurants, cafes, pubs, hair salons etc closing in the near future as people cut down to bare essentials.

[Happier diner]

9 minutes ago, Gladys said:

Why would it be a choice between metering and  a desalination plant?

As others have said, we don’t have a major water problem, metering won't necessarily result in water savings (fixing the allegedly leaky system would though) and if the current system works why change it? 

Roger (I think) gave a great explanation as to how the cost is in the delivery infrastructure not the amount of water delivered through it. 

Metering would save vast amounts of water. It would also tell you where the leaks were. 

[Two-lane]

Water meters only affect poor people. Rich people continue to fill their swimming pools and water the tennis court. They are not limited by money.

[Dirty Buggane]

1 hour ago, Happier diner said:

Metering would save vast amounts of water. It would also tell you where the leaks were. 

You don't half talk some shite sometimes.

[Happier diner]

1 hour ago, Two-lane said:

Water meters only affect poor people. Rich people continue to fill their swimming pools and water the tennis court. They are not limited by money.

That's a good point. @John Wright posted some while back about his place in Spain where they have a rising scale. Your first few M3 are cheap then it rises steeply as you use more. That would work. 

[Happier diner]

33 minutes ago, Dirty Buggane said:

You don't half talk some shite sometimes.

In your 'learned' opinion 😜 https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/money/2009/dec/08/water-meters-help-cut-useage

Edited July 9, 2023 by Happier diner

[John Wright]

19 minutes ago, Happier diner said:

That's a good point. @John Wright posted some while back about his place in Spain where they have a rising scale. Your first few M3 are cheap then it rises steeply as you use more. That would work. 

But it’s grossly unfair on a family. You’d need some sort of allowance per head built in.

My water in Spain costs more than my treasury rates/sewage charge here. I might be there 16 weeks a year. I’ve a klargester sewage digester and have to pay emptying charge periodically ( about every 4 years ).

Water supply is artesian source, serves about 20 houses. It’s filtered, not treated, very hard. We used to pay €10 a month and it covered the maintenance, pump costs and annual testing and certification as potable. Town hall introduced volumetric charging during covid. Some of my neighbours refuse to pay. We are campaigning to have supply taken over by AgBar. The charge band  allowances are much greater.

OK, I have a pool in Spain but leakage is minimal, so no top up, and the grass, veg plot and orchard plus flowers are irrigated 1/5 to 30/10. Im paying €35 a month 1/11 to 30/4 ( 6 months ) and €200 a month for the 6 summer months.

[WTF]

53 minutes ago, Dirty Buggane said:

You don't half talk some shite sometimes.

sometimes ??

[Happier diner]

2 hours ago, John Wright said:

But it’s grossly unfair on a family. You’d need some sort of allowance per head built in.

My water in Spain costs more than my treasury rates/sewage charge here. I might be there 16 weeks a year. I’ve a klargester sewage digester and have to pay emptying charge periodically ( about every 4 years ).

Water supply is artesian source, serves about 20 houses. It’s filtered, not treated, very hard. We used to pay €10 a month and it covered the maintenance, pump costs and annual testing and certification as potable. Town hall introduced volumetric charging during covid. Some of my neighbours refuse to pay. We are campaigning to have supply taken over by AgBar. The charge band  allowances are much greater.

OK, I have a pool in Spain but leakage is minimal, so no top up, and the grass, veg plot and orchard plus flowers are irrigated 1/5 to 30/10. Im paying €35 a month 1/11 to 30/4 ( 6 months ) and €200 a month for the 6 summer months.

That's a fair point too. Just having a pool doesn't mean you use a lot of water and yes some people use water for purposes over which they have no control. The principle is good though, will need thinking about. The big offenders are those that leave sprinklers running all night or have leaks on their own pipes or even ponds that leak. Basically those that don't give a £_&- because it's free. 

[Ringy Rose]

21 hours ago, Happier diner said:

However your second paragraph makes no sense at all. You can only assess whether water meters are about revenue raising or not unless you see a tariff. Without a tariff you have no idea.

The stated motive for meters is always “reducing consumption”, and the solution to that motive is always to charge more for consumption.

But most of the cost of water supply is the infrastructure, which costs the same to operate and maintain regardless of how much water an individual uses. So the rates have to rise as consumption reduces.

If we had water shortages or needed a desalination plant (the cost of which does rise with consumption) it would be different.

6 hours ago, Happier diner said:

Smart meters don't effect how much you pay.

They will do, though. The UK are well on the way to dynamic pricing where you get a “discount” for using at cheaper times. Of course the “discounted” rate is pretty much the current rate and therefore most consumption gets more expensive.

The whole point of a smart meter is to bring about dynamic pricing.

[Happier diner]

1 minute ago, Ringy Rose said:

The stated motive for meters is always “reducing consumption”, and the solution to that motive is always to charge more for consumption.

But most of the cost of water supply is the infrastructure, which costs the same to operate and maintain regardless of how much water an individual uses. So the rates have to rise as consumption reduces.

If we had water shortages or needed a desalination plant (the cost of which does rise with consumption) it would be different.

They will do, though. The UK are well on the way to dynamic pricing where you get a “discount” for using at cheaper times. Of course the “discounted” rate is pretty much the current rate and therefore most consumption gets more expensive.

The whole point of a smart meter is to bring about dynamic pricing.

I think you are mixing electricity with water. 

You are right though about the fixed cost element. This is dealt with via the standing charge. Water metering has to be about disincentivising wastage